User experiences in prolonged extreme cold?

[theHUN]

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Hi folks,

I've had two lovely multi-day trips to glaciers where my gear was exposed to extreme cold. While the gear handled it very well even though it was left outside all day and night, I want to take a monochrome camera on the next trip -> M10M. I expect minimum temperatures down to -30 F for a few hours and -10 F for several days and nights, which is far lower than what is stated by Leica as their recommended operating temperature. So I am curious, have users taken their M10(M) to such cold environments for multiple days? If so, how did the camera handle it? How was battery life impacted? Did the shutter act up? If the mods will allow some lens discussion, how did the lens handle the cold? I am particularly worried about optics getting pinched, infinity focus being completely off from the hard-stop, and lubricants in the helicoid freezing up. The most likely lens candidates are the 28/2.8 Elmarit and the 28/5.6 Summaron. Being relatively wide lenses, zone focusing will be enough (there will be plenty of light to shoot handheld at f/11 even at night), and if the viewfinder fogs up I can easily guess composition as well while keeping live-view off to preserve the battery.

I would appreciate any and all input.

Thanks.

[jaapv]

I have never be that extreme, but in general: expect batteries to have an extremely short life, keep a few warm in your pocket. The LCD may well grow dark (but this is reversible)  I would not expect too much trouble with the lenses, except the focusing becoming stiff. Fast extreme. changes in temperature may crack glass, so avoid those.
The main problem to avoid is internal condensation inside the camera when you take it inside from the cold. This can be a camera killer (and it has happened on this forum!) Keep the camera inside an airtight plastic bag with as little air in it as possible when warming up.

Don't expect any guaranty claim to be honoured, the official operating temperature is 0 ºC  to +40 ºC.

[theHUN]

I was hoping for an actual number regarding battery life. I had another camera with me on a similar trip in 2019, and with all the non-essential items turned off, I managed to get >600 shots over ~9 days on just one battery. This was in 0 F weather though, and obviously a different camera system.

The good news is that there will be no fast extreme temperature changes, but there will also be no "inside" as I'll be in a tent for the entire duration of the trip. And I have zero expectations about warranty.

The M10 manual states that the charger will not operate if the battery is below 0 C. Can users confirm that? I was hoping I could at least use a solar charger to keep batteries topped off, but I am not sure I can keep the battery at 0 C over the entire charging period.

[jaapv]

I would expect a battery life of zilch. The digital Leica M is singularly unsuitable for this kind of use; the body is all metal with very little insulating airspace inside, causing the battery to cool down rapidly. That means that it will lose capacity within ten or twenty shots if you use the camera in extreme cold. Of course you can alternate between two batteries and warm one up in your pocket, but that means taking off. your gloves each time. 

[dbeids]

I would expect, as Jaap  said, very poor battery performance. In 1990 I went on a photo trip to Yellowstone in January. Temps were similar, below 0 F for extended periods, although I stayed indoors at night. I brought two cameras…a Canon film SLR and an M3. Canon made an external battery pack that one wore under ones coat and connected to the camera via cable. For use in extreme cold. 
 

The M3 didn’t have a battery problem obviously. However, at Sherry Krauter’s advice, I had her replace the lube in the M3 with a dry low temperature lubricant, and then reverse the process when I got back. It worked flawlessly. I don’t know if the M10M would benefit from a similar procedure. There is no film advance mechanism obviously, not sure if the mechanical shutter is lubricated. 

[theHUN]

Well, I know the M246 can handle cold as demonstrated by the amazing pictures (just one example) that Peter has posted in the M246 thread, so I wouldn't say that "digital Leica M is singularly unsuitable for this kind of use".

[adan]

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Just as a side-note:

Batteries store energy as chemical potential, and produce power on demand via a chemical reaction.

Cold slows down the reaction. It should not significantly change the stored amount of chemical energy, only whether it can be recovered usefully at a given instant.

Thus the ability to "recover" access to the stored energy by simply warming the battery up - with body heat if no other source exists.

Batteries will actual lose their stored chemical energy faster in high heat (reactions occur even with no drain). Cool storage (>0°C) is actually preferred to hold the charge (with the precautions already mentioned regarding condensation).

However, long-term physical lithium-battery damage from sub-zero-C cold (expansion/contraction, not just condensation) is possible: https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/news/2021-08-24-how-extreme-cold-can-crack-lithium-ion-battery-materials-degrading-performance.aspx

I would recommend: take multiple batteries - protect them from the extreme cold in an insulated container, perhaps with an extra hand-warmer device included (or keep them with you in your sleeping bag ) - warm them to above 0°C for use, and replace with a warmer battery once they become cold-soaked - rinse and repeat.

[jaapv]

4 hours ago, theHUN said:

Well, I know the M246 can handle cold as demonstrated by the amazing pictures (just one example) that Peter has posted in the M246 thread, so I wouldn't say that "digital Leica M is singularly unsuitable for this kind of use".

If you can keep your batteries warm... 

[theHUN]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

If you can keep your batteries warm... 

I actually reached out to Peter, and if he kept the batteries warm he did not mention it to me.

Either way, thanks all for the input so far. Looking forward to more first-hand user experiences.

Edit: Apologies if I come across as annoyed, but I know the basics of camera operation in cold weather as my first post illustrates. The purpose of this thread was to learn about the specifics of the M10 in cold weather.

Edited April 20, 2022 by theHUN

[jaapv]

If you search the forum you'll find plenty of threads, including complaints about M cameras/batteries  not functioning at relatively mild temperatures like -10ºC and an M8 dying of condensation when kept in a tent in Greenland.

[jdlaing]

If you read the instruction manual and the warnings about minimum and maximum temperature usage, and then use your camera that far outside those limits, you deserve everything that happens. It’s that simple.

[wizard]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb jdlaing:

... you deserve everything that happens. It’s that simple.

Well, sometimes you have to stretch the limits. I guess the information provided in any instruction manual always plays it safe, as manufacturers want to avoid claims of their customers. In reality, however, I am pretty sure that a digital Leica M camera will also work under much adverse conditions than indicated in its manual. 

[theHUN]

55 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

If you read the instruction manual and the warnings about minimum and maximum temperature usage, and then use your camera that far outside those limits, you deserve everything that happens. It’s that simple.

Fully understood, hence this thread, so I can get an idea of how far I can go outside of the stated range. I am certain that half those specs are overly conservative, if not written by lawyers.

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

If you search the forum you'll find plenty of threads, including complaints about M cameras/batteries  not functioning at relatively mild temperatures like -10ºC and an M8 dying of condensation when kept in a tent in Greenland.

Let's assume condensation will not be an issue as it wasn't on my previous trips.

But alright, I'll do a better job of searching this forum.

[Herr Barnack]

2 hours ago, wizard said:

Well, sometimes you have to stretch the limits. I guess the information provided in any instruction manual always plays it safe, as manufacturers want to avoid claims of their customers. In reality, however, I am pretty sure that a digital Leica M camera will also work under much adverse conditions than indicated in its manual. 

 

i would expect the same.  The people in Wetzlar who wrote the M11 manual most likely had a meeting where the discussion went something along the lines of, "Okay, so we know that people don't listen.  So let's make the stated safe operating temperature of the camera half what it is in reality."

If you need to take an M camera to Antarctica, the North Pole or to the summit of an 8000m peak in the Himalaya range, you could send it to Leica and have it prepped for extremely low temperatures.  Such extremes might require taking a film M rather than an M11, though.

[jaapv]

The figures are fairly precise. Using an M240 in ambient temperatures above 35ºC and using the EVF ( which produces processing heat) will raise the operating temperature over 40ºC and lock up the camera.

[jplomley]

Forget the M10M and M10-R in frigid conditions. I went out in two brutal Canadian blizzards with the M10M, temperatures around -20 to -30C. After 5 minutes the shutter was no longer functional, unable to keep to 1/250th sec shutter speeds. Half the image was black and on many instances pressing the shutter did nothing and it was necessary to shut the camera off and pull the battery. I also just returned from NH shooting at the top of the Kancamangus overpass, temperature about -10C, snowing on an off. Within a 30 minute period, the camera froze six times when in LV. Again, had to remove my RRS plate, pull the battery, and then it was functional again for a brief period. Its a shame, because my intent was to replace my SL2 system entirely with the M10-R and M10M for landscape, but this is no longer an option, so I am stuck with the underwhelming performance of the 16-35 SVE with its poor corner performance and loss of resolution at the frame edges. Not to mention overall poor performance at the 35mm end. And don't even get me started on the shutter shock at 1/250th sec with the SL2, rendering it completely useless except for tripod work. But I digress.

[Sailronin]

I haven't taken a digital Leica to extreme cold however, my Phase One P30 sensor "froze" after just a few minutes at -12 to -18 C. The mechanical portions (leaf shutter and HB501CM body shutter) worked perfectly but the sensor went pure white.  I thought I'd killed the P30 but after 45 minutes in the car the digital back came back to life. 

In higher temperatures (around 0 to -8 C) my M9 worked fine but I always kept it inside my outer coat when not in use.  At minus 30 or so would think the camera would freeze up pretty quickly. Analog may be better suited for those extremes.

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Sailronin

[theHUN]

14 hours ago, jplomley said:

Forget the M10M and M10-R in frigid conditions. I went out in two brutal Canadian blizzards with the M10M, temperatures around -20 to -30C. After 5 minutes the shutter was no longer functional, unable to keep to 1/250th sec shutter speeds. Half the image was black and on many instances pressing the shutter did nothing and it was necessary to shut the camera off and pull the battery. I also just returned from NH shooting at the top of the Kancamangus overpass, temperature about -10C, snowing on an off. Within a 30 minute period, the camera froze six times when in LV. Again, had to remove my RRS plate, pull the battery, and then it was functional again for a brief period. Its a shame, because my intent was to replace my SL2 system entirely with the M10-R and M10M for landscape, but this is no longer an option, so I am stuck with the underwhelming performance of the 16-35 SVE with its poor corner performance and loss of resolution at the frame edges. Not to mention overall poor performance at the 35mm end. And don't even get me started on the shutter shock at 1/250th sec with the SL2, rendering it completely useless except for tripod work. But I digress.

Thank, this is exactly the kind of input I was hoping for. Some users on other fora had more success than you, but it seems to be hit and miss, and therefore not worth the risk for a once in a lifetime trip. Too bad, but I will manage with my other gear.

[jplomley]

4 hours ago, theHUN said:

Thank, this is exactly the kind of input I was hoping for. Some users on other fora had more success than you, but it seems to be hit and miss, and therefore not worth the risk for a once in a lifetime trip. Too bad, but I will manage with my other gear.

That is the wise choice sir! I have trips planned for next winter, and unfortunately my M's will not be joining me. It will be the SL2 (or SL3 depending on launch date) and hopefully three APO Summicrons if Leica ever manage get their act together and release the 21/24 APO lenses. Otherwise, the 16-35 boat anchor will be coming along and I will continue to try and ignore the crap corner and edge performance of that over-priced optic.

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Hallo,

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[davidmknoble]

Just curious if you received any recommendations from Leica directly. I know they have separate grease for the Leica MP under those temperatures.  I also know they just posted a blog article about the SL2-S in Antarctica.  So they clearly have recommendations outside the manual.

https://leica-camera.com/en-US/stories/sl2-beyond-epica