Photoworks Posted April 4, 2022 Share #121 Posted April 4, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 13 minutes ago, mespowood said: My experience with light metering so far has been less than excellent too. I come from the Q and mostly shoot concert photography, where the multi-zone metering was always quite good. With the M11 I am getting some odd drastic variations and blown highlights way more than I would expect. I personally don't know if it is specifically the metering, or also potentially because I am now shooting a Summilux @ 1.4 on the new camera, but its quite a surprise. I always expose to the left now to avoid this, which is odd but working okay for me at the moment. I went to shoot intentionally with Highlights metering turned to see how it works. M11 and Noctilux 50 It was about sunset and wanted to see it the notcilux has better CA correction in the latest Firmware. To my surprise the after 4-5 image taken there where 1-2 overexposed by 2 or more stops. Shooting in Auto ISO and A on the shutter.. the correct exposures didn't look exposure for the Highlights , they looks very similar to Multi field but the fist one was brighter image by one stop. the ISO often doubled from 500 to 1000. Where is the benefit? is it better to shoot in Higher iso and Exposed to the right. or correct exposure at 500 iSO boosting 1/2 stop in post? This thinking only applies to DNG. the overexposed JPG are useless. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 4, 2022 Posted April 4, 2022 Hi Photoworks, Take a look here New Firmware 1.3.0 for Leica M11 (and Fotos app updated to 3.1.0). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
M11 for me Posted April 4, 2022 Share #122 Posted April 4, 2022 vor 26 Minuten schrieb Photoworks: I went to shoot intentionally with Highlights metering turned to see how it works. M11 and Noctilux 50 It was about sunset and wanted to see it the notcilux has better CA correction in the latest Firmware. To my surprise the after 4-5 image taken there where 1-2 overexposed by 2 or more stops. Shooting in Auto ISO and A on the shutter.. the correct exposures didn't look exposure for the Highlights , they looks very similar to Multi field but the fist one was brighter image by one stop. the ISO often doubled from 500 to 1000. Where is the benefit? is it better to shoot in Higher iso and Exposed to the right. or correct exposure at 500 iSO boosting 1/2 stop in post? This thinking only applies to DNG. the overexposed JPG are useless. My experience is that it works very well. It does ETTR. This might not be the exposure that is perfect for your shot but ETTR contains most data in the highlights. Maybe in post you have to make a bit darker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmzimelka Posted April 5, 2022 Share #123 Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, mespowood said: My experience with light metering so far has been less than excellent too. I come from the Q and mostly shoot concert photography, where the multi-zone metering was always quite good. With the M11 I am getting some odd drastic variations and blown highlights way more than I would expect. I personally don't know if it is specifically the metering, or also potentially because I am now shooting a Summilux @ 1.4 on the new camera, but its quite a surprise. I always expose to the left now to avoid this, which is odd but working okay for me at the moment. I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with the metering. The centre weighted metering doesn't behave like a traditional centre weighted metering that meters for 18% grey. Multi segment metering can vary by huge amounts on the same scene when moving the camera just a tiny bit. In live view, this can sometimes be seen as flickering, as I have the camera to show exposure preview at all times. And no, I'm outdoors shooting nature and landscapes, without artificial lighting. Yesterday I was photographing some outdoor shots, with arguably simple lighting. I don't think at any point I wasn't using the exposure compensation. Mostly set to negative exposure. At times, moving the composition to include a tiny bit more blue sky, would throw the exposure off by more than a stop. This degree of variation is just ridiculous for a scene that doesn't have complicated lighting. Every now and again, I get a random overexposure in a series of images shot in single shot mode. The highlight and multi segment metering very often gets fooled by a little bit of shadow detail and the end result is that I have lost detail in clipped highlights where there are at least one of the channels clipped and unrecoverable. Then at other times it underexposes when there is a small bright object. For the few months I had the M10M, I found that metering far more predictable and consistent. Edited April 5, 2022 by hmzimelka 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
anickpick Posted April 5, 2022 Share #124 Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) + 1 / Unfortunately, the new metering system cannot be trusted. It's too unreliable. Edited April 5, 2022 by anickpick 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmzimelka Posted April 5, 2022 Share #125 Posted April 5, 2022 1 hour ago, anickpick said: + 1 / Unfortunately, the new metering system cannot be trusted. It's too unreliable. Yeah. It varies wildly. 9/10 times of the time its completely useless. Below. Two shots with highlight metering. Taken seconds apart and where the one I moved just a little to the right. The bright one has unrecoverable highlights. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/331108-new-firmware-130-for-leica-m11-and-fotos-app-updated-to-310/?do=findComment&comment=4412888'>More sharing options...
hmzimelka Posted April 5, 2022 Share #126 Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) Two more examples of highlight weighted metering. Completely blown, unrecoverable highlights, with more than one channel clipped. For the first image, Centre weighted, Highlight and Multi Segment metering returned the identical exposure!!! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited April 5, 2022 by hmzimelka Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/331108-new-firmware-130-for-leica-m11-and-fotos-app-updated-to-310/?do=findComment&comment=4412890'>More sharing options...
hmzimelka Posted April 5, 2022 Share #127 Posted April 5, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) There is also a bug or odd behaviour with playback in the following condition... Storage mode to JPG on Internal and DNG on SD. Shooting DNG+JPG. JPG set to Small. No auto playback. Playback image zoomed in is only of the small JPG file. Not the Large DNG, even though playback is set to SD. Then, if one selects playback to Internal, and then back to SD, the image can be zoomed in fully as a full size DNG. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmzimelka Posted April 5, 2022 Share #128 Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) I found another issue... in live view, multi-segment and highlight metering yields different exposures to Rangefinder only shooting. In live view, metering seems to work better. First rangefinder. Second, live view. Both highlight weighted metering. Where can one report these issues? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited April 5, 2022 by hmzimelka Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/331108-new-firmware-130-for-leica-m11-and-fotos-app-updated-to-310/?do=findComment&comment=4412897'>More sharing options...
JimKnopf Posted April 5, 2022 Share #129 Posted April 5, 2022 vor 11 Minuten schrieb hmzimelka: I found another issue... in live view, multi-segment and highlight metering yields different exposures to Rangefinder shooting only. In live view, metering seems to work better. First rangefinder. Second, live view. Both highlight weighted metering. Where can one report these issues? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I think that's a wrong conclusion. The M11 works and measures the exposure permanently via the sensor. The live view is actually always switched on. Only the screen is switched off. If this can be reconstructed, it would be a serious software error. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmzimelka Posted April 5, 2022 Share #130 Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, JimKnopf said: I think that's a wrong conclusion. The M11 works and measures the exposure permanently via the sensor. The live view is actually always switched on. Only the screen is switched off. If this can be reconstructed, it would be a serious software error. Yes, I know how the metering is supposed to work. My conclusion is the resulting exposure and metering differences when shooting rangefinder vs live view are different from each other even though they shouldn't be. I've triple checked this now on difference subjects. Its probably a bug, since its not the intended behaviour. [Edit] it isn't consistent though. So it must be bug of sorts Edited April 5, 2022 by hmzimelka 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimKnopf Posted April 5, 2022 Share #131 Posted April 5, 2022 thanks for the explanation. Then it's -again- a new serious error. It's a shame that the camera is so covered with errors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewl Posted April 5, 2022 Share #132 Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) vor einer Stunde schrieb hmzimelka: Yes, I know how the metering is supposed to work. My conclusion is the resulting exposure and metering differences when shooting rangefinder vs live view are different from each other even though they shouldn't be. I've triple checked this now on difference subjects. Its probably a bug, since its not the intended behaviour. [Edit] it isn't consistent though. So it must be bug of sorts Was this working before the latest firmware upgrade? I don't know whether there is an official process to report software / firmware bugs, but at least, if you look at their contact details you can find an entry point for "Software Support": software-support@leica-camera.com Might be worth to address it via this channel! Edited April 5, 2022 by Jewl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted April 5, 2022 Share #133 Posted April 5, 2022 7 hours ago, hmzimelka said: Yeah. It varies wildly. 9/10 times of the time its completely useless. Below. Two shots with highlight metering. Taken seconds apart and where the one I moved just a little to the right. The bright one has unrecoverable highlights. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The bright sun has disappeared in the second shot, hence highlight-weighted metering made it brighter. Seems to work as expected. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted April 5, 2022 Share #134 Posted April 5, 2022 7 hours ago, hmzimelka said: I found another issue... in live view, multi-segment and highlight metering yields different exposures to Rangefinder only shooting. In live view, metering seems to work better. First rangefinder. Second, live view. Both highlight weighted metering. Where can one report these issues? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Are you saying that turning LV on/off yields different metering? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankX Posted April 5, 2022 Share #135 Posted April 5, 2022 vor 29 Minuten schrieb SrMi: The bright sun has disappeared in the second shot, hence highlight-weighted metering made it brighter. Seems to work as expected. I think he liked to express that the highlights in the second shot are not recoverable! That should definitely not happen as it is the target of highlight-weighted metering to avoid exactly that! P.S.: I am really surprised and annoyed about these findings. With my SL2 (same processor, probably same algorithms) all metering modes work like intended. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmzimelka Posted April 5, 2022 Share #136 Posted April 5, 2022 7 hours ago, Jewl said: Was this working before the latest firmware upgrade? I don't know whether there is an official process to report software / firmware bugs, but at least, if you look at their contact details you can find an entry point for "Software Support": software-support@leica-camera.com Might be worth to address it via this channel! I did report this to Leica and have sent them DNG files to investigate. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmzimelka Posted April 5, 2022 Share #137 Posted April 5, 2022 1 hour ago, SrMi said: The bright sun has disappeared in the second shot, hence highlight-weighted metering made it brighter. Seems to work as expected. Still shouldn't blow highlights past clipping. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmzimelka Posted April 5, 2022 Share #138 Posted April 5, 2022 1 hour ago, SrMi said: Are you saying that turning LV on/off yields different metering? Exactly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmzimelka Posted April 5, 2022 Share #139 Posted April 5, 2022 41 minutes ago, FrankX said: I think he liked to express that the highlights in the second shot are not recoverable! That should definitely not happen as it is the target of highlight-weighted metering to avoid exactly that! P.S.: I am really surprised and annoyed about these findings. With my SL2 (same processor, probably same algorithms) all metering modes work like intended. I hope its just a bug... it has to be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted April 5, 2022 Share #140 Posted April 5, 2022 2 hours ago, hmzimelka said: Exactly. I cannot reproduce it in my initial testing: - fixed ISO and aperture - looking through rangefinder, the shutter speed does not change when turning LV on and off. How did you reproduce it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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