M11 Bashing

[Guest]

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Begin rant. I’ve gotta say that I can’t remember the launch of a product that has been so disparaged and trolled by a brand’s intended customer base as the M11 (particularly in this forum). From complaining what the camera is not (a DSLR), does not include (IBIS, a built in EVF), does not do well (speedy operation), and costs (it’s a lot of $$$, but in the US at least it’s the same price as its predecessor), to self-flagellation over what it says about purchasers (rich snobs), why some people won’t buy one, and why others have sold theirs.   So many of these comments seem to be coming from non-M users or folks who haven’t actually even held an M11. I look forward to using my copy (on order), but I made a thoughtful choice in choosing to do so based on how I will use the camera (I happen to like manual rangefinders). Why is it that so many have decided to spend so much time fretting publicly about their decision and bitching about the product?  Buy one or don’t, but please spare us the angst. It’s just a tool, albeit an expensive one.  Rant over. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by ChrisL

[hepcat]

Allow me to reference Chapter Leica M5 on page 1971 of the "Leicaphile Failing to Accept a Product Because it's Different" Compendium.   Going back even further, of course, there was the Chapter Leicaflex Standard  on page 1964.  And let us not forget Chapters Leica R3 and R4 in the appendix in Complaints About Electronics.   And of course, then there are all of the subchapters on soft edges, vignetting, comparing this lens to that lens,  and how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.   

There is a difference between those who are photographers and actually use this gear to make saleable images vs. those who are wealthy enough to afford to own and chat about how they own whatever it is they believe is best... or not.   And I don't begrudge anyone that. 

But, pay them no mind.  Buy the gear you want and go make images with it and don't be concerned about the rants of others.   The bottom line is that you can't ever tell what image was made by what camera/lens/film (if you're using film)/sensor (for digital)  combination anyway when you see a print...  and if you're complaining about edge softness or vignetting when you see a new image, then the image probably isn't strong enough anyway.

Everyone has an opinion.  That's just fine.  It doesn't mean I have to pay attention to them.

Edited March 24, 2022 by hepcat

[Overgaard]

48 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Begin rant. 

I think you're looking at passionate people trying hard to convince them self that they really need this ... or that they really don't need this. 

The struggle is real 😉

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, ChrisL said:

I look forward to using my copy (on order), but I made a thoughtful choice in choosing to do so based on how I will use the camera (I happen to like manual rangefinders).

Excuse the selective quote, but you decided to buy the camera after a “thoughtful choice” based on the information available.  Others have also come to a thoughtful choice to not buy the camera.  A lot of the discussion is just people trying to understand what is new and to make similar “thoughtful choices”.

The bashing comes with every Leica release - not enough, too much, too big, too small, too heavy, too slow and always too expensive (even though price increases come during a product life-cycle, rather than on new releases).  Enjoy your new camera, and don’t fret about what people say here - there is a core that is helpful, informative and entertaining.

[pgk]

1 hour ago, ChrisL said:

I’ve gotta say that I can’t remember the launch of a product that has been so disparaged and trolled by a brand’s intended customer base as the M11 (particularly in this forum).

Perhaps this should tell you something, or even better tell Leica something. This is a forum. Which is a place where people discuss things, in this case anything pertaining to Leica. The M11 has had a strong response from those who like its specifications and those who don't see its these as being an evolutionary step forwards. If we don't discuss things we can hardly complain if Leica gets things wrong in future (I'm sure they do browse here at times).

[tom0511]

Don't take it too serious.

The M11 is a good camera, and the M10 was (and is) a good camera, and there are good cameras from other brands as well.

If someone searches long enough, one will always find some issues. 

Sometimes it helps, because you know what to expect, sometimes people make big issues out of things which are non issues in real use.

 

 

[Guest]

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“Enjoy your new camera, and don’t fret about what people say here - there is a core that is helpful, informative and entertaining.”

I fully intend to and I come to this forum to learn and pick up user tips.  I also try to give some advice where I think it may be helpful I (I’m no pro but I have been using rangefinders in various forms since 1970 (a Konica)).  But since the M11’s release on January 13, aside from some reviews by folks I respect like Jono, the number of user tips seems to be far outweighed by trolling or uniformed opinions.  I’m just seeking balance so that coming to this forum is a useful experience.  People complaining hasn’t and won’t dissuade me.

[lct]

When people acquire a new tool or toy, especially an expensive one, they/we tend to "defend" it. Such is life. Discussing is the only way to know the truth.

 

[Jeff S]

You haven't been around the forum long enough to know that this is nothing new.

And some of the same people who insist that the new release is a mess will be among its most vocal supporters years from now.  

Sometimes the naysayers are most vocal even before a new model is released (see Monochroms, D versions, etc), only to extol their virtues later.

Jeff 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Jeff S

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

You haven't been around the forum long enough to know that this is nothing new.

True, despite having owned Ms since the M7, I’ve only been a member of this forum for the last 2 years. I have, however, read a lot of older posts on this forum relating to Rs, older Ms, SLs, CLs and Q2s, and have followed many other photography forums (fora?).  I’m used to the blather on social media, but I honestly expected more from this site. That’s why I hope we can move forward with more informative and useful posts. 

[Jeff S]

Just now, ChrisL said:

True, despite having owned Ms since the M7, I’ve only been a member of this forum for the last 2 years. I have, however, read a lot of older posts on this forum relating to Rs, older Ms, SLs, CLs and Q2s, and have followed many other photography forums (fora?).  I’m used to the blather on social media, but I honestly expected more from this site. That’s why I hope we can move forward with more informative and useful posts. 

Leica reads the forum, or at least has informants.  When the M9 models developed sensor corrosion, and the forum erupted (the M11 comments are mild by comparison), Leica responded directly on the forum and issued a statement and policy. By the way, the M9, which became a star in the lineup after the introduction, was bashed initially for bad colors, sensor cracks, buffer issues, red edges, freezes, etc. This is tradition. Leica knows its passionate customer base. 
 

Jeff

[Telecaster]

Folks, lets be honest: Nobody needs a Leica M11 to make great photos. Actually most other cameras are much efficient (cost/performance ratio) compared especially to a Leica M11!

But also most watches you can buy are more efficient than a e.g. Rolex. Still people buy Rolex. Why? Because it makes them happy - and happiness is all that really counts - seriously.

Andreas

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

Leica reads the forum, or at least has informants.  When the M9 models developed sensor corrosion, and the forum erupted (the M11 comments are mild by comparison), Leica responded directly on the forum and issued a statement and policy.  Jeff

Thank goodness Leica reads this forum and takes action. It seems to me that the difference here is that the M9’s negative comments emerged after (sometimes long after) the camera was in use in the field and related to very real issues like sensor corrosion.  Those are absolutely legitimate and useful posts  

 With the M11, however, it seems that a large number of the negative comments arose before anyone actually had a production model in their hands. I’ll never forget the inane “review” cited here and elsewhere where the “reviewer”, after making some silly snarky comments, only commented about his dry skin rubbing off on the black finish of a preproduction camera. 🤦‍♂️ Or the numerous comments about functionality that disregarded what a rangefinder is primarily used for (street,  environmental portrait, documentary, reportage, travel) and is not particularly well suited for (sports, wildlife, for example). 

Anyway, I don’t want to continue to beat this dead horse - I think you know where I’m coming from. 

[LocalHero1953]

I saw the title of the thread and thought: ah, at last - a thread where we are allowed to bash the M11 without its supporters piling in on us independent thinkers........😉

[Guest]

1 minute ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I saw the title of the thread and thought: ah, at last - a thread where we are allowed to bash the M11 without its supporters piling in on us independent thinkers........😉

Doesn’t seem that there has been any constraint on the bashing thus far!  

[idusidusi]

3 hours ago, ChrisL said:

Begin rant. I’ve gotta say that I can’t remember the launch of a product that has been so disparaged and trolled by a brand’s intended customer base as the M11 (particularly in this forum). From complaining what the camera is not (a DSLR), does not include (IBIS, a built in EVF), does not do well (speedy operation), and costs (it’s a lot of $$$, but in the US at least it’s the same price as its predecessor), to self-flagellation over what it says about purchasers (rich snobs), why some people won’t buy one, and why others have sold theirs.   So many of these comments seem to be coming from non-M users or folks who haven’t actually even held an M11. I look forward to using my copy (on order), but I made a thoughtful choice in choosing to do so based on how I will use the camera (I happen to like manual rangefinders). Why is it that so many have decided to spend so much time fretting publicly about their decision and bitching about the product?  Buy one or don’t, but please spare us the angst. It’s just a tool, albeit an expensive one.  Rant over. 

Indeed I have stopped reading t^such threads, having made my decision to buy one. One thing that does irk me though the Leica Store told me that I cannot have a Leica red dot replaced by a black one as I did officially have done done at Leica with a M10. The whole idea is stealth for me with a black camera a black dot is in keeping with my desire to not advertise the fact that I am using a Leica! Reading some of the negative stiff on here got me questioning whether I am doing the right thing. Now I am saying to heck with  all the negatives. I certainly don't want to black out the red dot with a market pen or gaffer tape which is ridiculous on an expensive new camera.! 

Edited March 24, 2022 by idusidusi

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, ChrisL said:

Doesn’t seem that there has been any constraint on the bashing thus far!  

It depends on your perspective! The 'Why I will not be getting the M11' thread didn't last long before M11 buyers weighed in. You'd think they would be happy to see the anti-M11 trolls trolling no one but each other.

Full transparency: I won't buy a M11, and didn't buy a M10. I had M9, M240, and have a M4, CL and SL2-S (and a few Barnacks). The M11 looks fine but I just don't have a use for it. I do, though, have a deep interest in how the M line develops. I feel I'm a neutral in the pro- and anti-M11 debate. I hope there is still room for neutral non-owners.

[Jeff S]

54 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

It seems to me that the difference here is that the M9’s negative comments emerged after (sometimes long after) the camera was in use in the field and related to very real issues like sensor corrosion.  Those are absolutely legitimate and useful posts  

 

The sensor corrosion was long after the model was embraced.  I specifically mentioned the initial reaction to the M9, soon after launch… red edges, buffer problems, bad colors, etc… since it was worse IMO than the early M11 reaction (including many quirks requiring FW updates). My point was that the detractors became advocates… well before the sensor corrosion issues, despite the loud forum noises after launch.

The video, form factor and CMOS debates for the M240 were also similar to M11 debates about changes unrelated to operational faults.

Jeff

Edited March 24, 2022 by Jeff S

[Jeff S]

30 minutes ago, idusidusi said:

One thing that does irk me though the Leica Store told me that I cannot have a Leica red dot replaced by a black one as I did officially have done done at Leica with a M10. 

Which Leica entity installed a black dot on your M10?  Since the black dot controversy with the black M8.2, this has been strictly forbidden by Leica, available only by third party or DIY.  
 

Jeff

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

Some take photos. Some bash cameras. Some do both. Everybody needs a hobby.

Gordon