I SOLD my Leica M11 …… & Why

[LocalHero1953]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

18 minutes ago, gotium said:

Sounds great, but note the publication date

That was my point!

[Fedro]

8 hours ago, 250swb said:

You'd have thought that wouldn't you, and once upon a time I'm sure Leica thought that. And then Voigtlander-Cosina came along and spoiled the party by making lenses every bit as usable as Leica, and that offer far more variety. And if you want 61mp how about the Sigma Fp L mount body, stick on an M adapter and you can own it for a quarter of the cost of an M11 body (and it's smaller). With so much variety of alternative lenses or bodies it doesn't really meet the criteria for being any sort of monopoly.

i meant the bodies, not the lenses. The FP is not a rangefinder

[cboy]

I hope Leica reads and considers OPs concerns which are shared by others. But given the way other manufacturer in the market are going it's likely Leica will be increasing their prices. Probably now is the best time to get the M11 than down the track.

Imo I hope they follow the footsteps of Omega x Swatch; perhaps do a new Collab between Leica x Panasonic or  Leica x Sigma and do a Leica CL reissue of some kind but lower tiered than the M11 flagship. Rd1 esque styled with manual wind shutter, bio-ceramic body and machined made to cut down cost 

 

[M11 for me]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb 250swb:

And you imagine you could accurately identify 'the Leica look' from a selection of prints made with Leica, Nikon, Sony, etc. cameras? Or maybe you are kidding yourself that 'the Leica look' even exists? 

 

Thx @250swb: indeed I do NOT believe in these things. And of course I am kidding (that is why there is the Smiley). I seriously wondered what sensor the Sigma has as it was said re the M11 that only Sony had 60MPix sensors . . .

[FlashGordonPhotography]

7 hours ago, 250swb said:

And you imagine you could accurately identify 'the Leica look' from a selection of prints made with Leica, Nikon, Sony, etc. cameras? Or maybe you are kidding yourself that 'the Leica look' even exists? 

The point would be, if it needs explaining, is that an alternative to a Leica body doesn't have to be a rangefinder. Just as an alternative to a Leica lens could be an old SLR lens, something previously impossible to focus on an M film body, but not a digital body. In many ways the photographic world has moved on. Ah, but there is the rangefinder experience to consider, but I have to tell you a lot of people choose equipment based on the photographs they want to end up with, not for the show of pressing the shutter. And this means a landscape photographer may not give a toss about any concerns a street photographer may have when choosing a camera body, lenses, or brand names, and visa versa. 

There is no doubt you can get a different camera and get incredible photos. It is also true that some photographers are only interested in results and don't care about the camera. However I would suggest that most serious photographers do care as much about the experience as the results. In reality it's often the experience that is the ONLY differentiator between brands as most camera systems exceed the needs of most photographers. Therefore an M11 can never be replaced by an FP-L. Nor can an M10 be replaced by an XPro3. As a working photographer I could have done 95% of my client work with m43 and my clients would have never been the wiser. But I didn't. Sure I chose gear to get the job done but I also chose gear that I wanted to shoot with. It would have been easier for me just to consolodate to Sony for my professional and personal shooting. But SOny is the brand I enjoy least so I shoot with Leica and Fuji and Hasselblad. The Leica argument is the same thing as the arguments some photographers make for full frame over APSC or APSC over m43. There are certainly technical differences between brands but mostly any technical arguments for most shooters most of the time is a technical defense of an emotional decision. Just look at all the aguments about the people who think they *need* an A1 to take photos of their grandkids or the small yappy thing they take on holiday. Most of us are over gunned with gear. Places like this will have a higher proportion of people who benifit from faster, sharper, higher res etc, etc. But even here most don't need even 24MP let alone 60. No one *needs* a Noctilux or even a Summilux. A CV lens at f2 is probably more than most need. So why not just shoot m43 and the excellent Olympus/Panasonic glass?

Camera systems DO influence how we approach our subjects though. Gear matters. Not as much as the tool 4 inches behind the viewfinder but we need gear to shoot with and the choice of that gear matters. Gear doesn't make better photos. It influences how we approach our subjects. You can shoot sports with a Q2. But it's not going to be as easy as with a Z9. Looking through an M does influence some photographers on how they approach a subject. Give the same photographer an M11 for an hour and an A7R4 for the next hour and an FP-L for an hour after that and there will be a difference. Perhaps a subtle one. But a difference, none the same. Someof us even shoot differently between a M10M and a M10R. As someone who has 6 brands and 9 systems that can shoot over 45MP, I can state catagorically that each system has a notcable effect on the images I take, how I approach a subject and the results. Because each systems strengths and weaknesses guides me to take different types of images from the others. I have a Hasselblad X1DII and a 907x. Exactly the same in every way but the viewfinder vs a flippy screen. Same sensor, lenses, speed, colour, menus. But they couldn't be more different to shoot with and the influence each one has on my photography is immediately obvious. Gear matters.

Syaing that something like a FP-L and an M11 are equivalent also ignores the fact that photography at this level is un-necessary. It's aspirational. If we go to the basic premise that photography is to make a record then your phone will suffice. It does for the vast majority. But we're *photographers*. We aspire to something more. We hone our craft. Which means we narrow the range of tools we use to a more scalpel like approach and we aspire to have the *best*. Leica is an aspirational brand. Wanting a Leica one day, is a thing. And that's fine. Even many working photographer will stow an old/new M in the bottom of their bag. Not because they need it bur because they just want to have a Leica and want to have the Leica experience. What we do, as weekend warriors with a Leica, is pointless outside our little circle. Our photos aren't important, except to us. We do this because it's fun. Because it distracts or challenges. It exercises the mind and if you shoot landscapes or travel, the body. I'm lucky. I can afford any camera. But lots and lots of people really work hard to get an M and one lens. That's because it means something beyond just saving pixels to a memory card.

So, with respect, I can not dissagree with your premise that an M11 and FP-L are equivalant at all.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

57 minutes ago, cboy said:

I hope Leica reads and considers OPs concerns which are shared by others. But given the way other manufacturer in the market are going it's likely Leica will be increasing their prices. Probably now is the best time to get the M11 than down the track.

Imo I hope they follow the footsteps of Omega x Swatch; perhaps do a new Collab between Leica x Panasonic or  Leica x Sigma and do a Leica CL reissue of some kind but lower tiered than the M11 flagship. Rd1 esque styled with manual wind shutter, bio-ceramic body and machined made to cut down cost 

 

Why not just buy a XPro3? 

I have yet to see the new Swatch in person but on the web the discussion about whether it has dilluted the Omega brand are already happening. The same would happen with a "cheap" M. You only need to see the impressions the Summarit line of M lenses had, to see Leica won't go down that path again.

Gordon

[boojum]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

Since you posted on April 2nd, it is unclear if you understood that the linked article was an April Fools joke.

Indeed, I do understand.  I also understand the self-touted "best" camera still does not have a variable diopter viewfinder.  The Leica M series is an interesting and expensive anachronism.  I do like the few I have but will have to test them alongside a Sony A7 to see just how significant a difference there really is.  That's no joke.

[IkarusJohn]

3 hours ago, boojum said:

Indeed, I do understand.  I also understand the self-touted "best" camera still does not have a variable diopter viewfinder.  The Leica M series is an interesting and expensive anachronism.  I do like the few I have but will have to test them alongside a Sony A7 to see just how significant a difference there really is.  That's no joke.

I thought it was a joke.

Honestly, why not just have one camera/system (your A7?) and work out how to make that camera/system work for you?  There are no absolutes.  Leica cameras are not “the best”, whatever metric you use.  They’re old-fashioned in design; never moved on from 1954 with its anachronistic viewfinder; manual lenses? Pfft - add your emoji here.  Even moderately good Canons, Nikons, Fujis, and probably Sonys are very good cameras, and good enough for most of what any of us do.

I’m not worried about the “best”. I just like my Leicas. I have come to like the rangefinder (despite its obvious flaws); I like the manual focus; and I like having things stripped back - disabled, if you like.  One of my M cameras is black and white only; another is colour digital, but has no screen (no MENUs?); and the other takes film! FILM?  Stupid.  No AF, no IBIS, plenty of WTF! 😂

Enjoy your cameras - forget about the best.  Gordon nails it above.

[cboy]

4 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Why not just buy a XPro3? 

I have yet to see the new Swatch in person but on the web the discussion about whether it has dilluted the Omega brand are already happening. The same would happen with a "cheap" M. You only need to see the impressions the Summarit line of M lenses had, to see Leica won't go down that path again.

Gordon

Well just as you mentioned a M11 isnt equivalent to the FP-L (speculated to have same / similar sensor) so too a new lower tier iteration of an M ain't a xpro 3. I don't think it'll devalue the brand but rather garner  more of a customer base. When those current Leicans are done and dusted who's to replace the coffers of Leica. Especially when price hikes throughout the industry continue cut more of demand. It's already seen somewhat in the SL line with the SL2s as a lower tier camera. Much like the ubiquitous phone not everyone needs flagship; even more so for a luxury camera. But luxury sells; case in point the Omega x Swatch collab. If a fraction of those who get the moonswatch become watch enthusiasts, and eventually get the real speedy then more power to Omega. The point was to increase the customer base. Similarly if Leica can cash in on the younger generation falling in love with lower tier M rather than going through the second market enroute to eventually buy an M, then wouldnt it help to add to Leicas bottom line?

The summarit line was the lens not the body. The typ no. got people confused whereas the S,D,M designation works well imo. And since Leica have discontinued the aspc CL, why not a lower tier FF CL? I'm quite sure many Fuji xpro & x100 fans are itching to get into Leica but the price of entry is too high. 

[lct]

39 minutes ago, cboy said:

[...] The summarit line was the lens not the body. The typ no. got people confused whereas the S,D,M designation works well imo. And since Leica have discontinued the aspc CL, why not a lower tier FF CL? I'm quite sure many Fuji xpro & x100 fans are itching to get into Leica but the price of entry is too high. 

Would be like asking Rolex or Ferrari to sell at Seiko or Fiat prices with respect. Leica cameras are not made the same way as Fuji cameras. There are PanaLeica cameras for that and if consumers don't find what they like there better buy a Fuji camera those are very good cameras there is no shame in that .

[lookbook]

I SOLD my Leica M11 …… & Why

If I had an M10 and wanted an M11, I would join the exchange here. It certainly helps the selling price of a used M10 enormously.
Should anyone want to exchange their M11 for a 246 monochrome - I'm interested!!!
: )

Edited April 3, 2022 by lookbook

[Archiver]

8 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Just look at all the aguments about the people who think they *need* an A1 to take photos of their grandkids or the small yappy thing they take on holiday. Most of us are over gunned with gear. Places like this will have a higher proportion of people who benifit from faster, sharper, higher res etc, etc. But even here most don't need even 24MP let alone 60. No one *needs* a Noctilux or even a Summilux. A CV lens at f2 is probably more than most need. So why not just shoot m43 and the excellent Olympus/Panasonic glass?

Camera systems DO influence how we approach our subjects though. Gear matters. Not as much as the tool 4 inches behind the viewfinder but we need gear to shoot with and the choice of that gear matters. Gear doesn't make better photos. It influences how we approach our subjects. You can shoot sports with a Q2. But it's not going to be as easy as with a Z9. Looking through an M does influence some photographers on how they approach a subject. Give the same photographer an M11 for an hour and an A7R4 for the next hour and an FP-L for an hour after that and there will be a difference. Perhaps a subtle one. But a difference, none the same. Someof us even shoot differently between a M10M and a M10R. As someone who has 6 brands and 9 systems that can shoot over 45MP, I can state catagorically that each system has a notcable effect on the images I take, how I approach a subject and the results. Because each systems strengths and weaknesses guides me to take different types of images from the others. I have a Hasselblad X1DII and a 907x. Exactly the same in every way but the viewfinder vs a flippy screen. Same sensor, lenses, speed, colour, menus. But they couldn't be more different to shoot with and the influence each one has on my photography is immediately obvious. Gear matters.

As I own a few systems including Panasonic m43, Leica M, Canon EF and Panasonic S, the gear in my hand does indeed influence not only the kind of images, but the way I shoot and my experience thereof. For stills, I shoot events and fast paced combat sports in a documentary style, along with a bit of portraiture and the extremely rare wedding. Using a Leica M to shoot combat sports is very challenging, but rewarding as heck, and not quite as difficult as one might think.

The combination of M9 and Distagon 35 gives a pop and sparkle that my other cameras can't seem to make, even if I put the Distagon on my Panasonic S5. And surprisingly, it's easier to focus a rangefinder than EVF focus peaking, all I have to do is track the action and make sure the frames line up while exposure stays locked. I could probably do this with an EVF based camera with more practice, and get more keepers from rapid burst, but the M experience is more enjoyable for me.

The environment also plays a part in choosing gear. For well lit places, any of these cameras will produce fine image quality. When the light is dim and challenging, the Panasonic G9 doesn't come to the same level of image quality, even with the f1.2 Olympus Pro or Voigtlander f0.95 primes. And the M9 can get very noisy when exposure is pushed, which is where the Panasonic S5 comes in. It would be helpful to have a single camera or cameras that can do it all in a way that I like, but I'm not there yet. In the future, I will see what can be done with a SL2-S or Panasonic S1, with their much larger and higher resolution EVF's and high burst rates. I'm curious about the Nikon Z9 for combat sports, but that's a whole new system with its attendant costs.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

7 hours ago, cboy said:

Well just as you mentioned a M11 isnt equivalent to the FP-L (speculated to have same / similar sensor) so too a new lower tier iteration of an M ain't a xpro 3. I don't think it'll devalue the brand but rather garner  more of a customer base. When those current Leicans are done and dusted who's to replace the coffers of Leica. Especially when price hikes throughout the industry continue cut more of demand. It's already seen somewhat in the SL line with the SL2s as a lower tier camera. Much like the ubiquitous phone not everyone needs flagship; even more so for a luxury camera. But luxury sells; case in point the Omega x Swatch collab. If a fraction of those who get the moonswatch become watch enthusiasts, and eventually get the real speedy then more power to Omega. The point was to increase the customer base. Similarly if Leica can cash in on the younger generation falling in love with lower tier M rather than going through the second market enroute to eventually buy an M, then wouldnt it help to add to Leicas bottom line?

The summarit line was the lens not the body. The typ no. got people confused whereas the S,D,M designation works well imo. And since Leica have discontinued the aspc CL, why not a lower tier FF CL? I'm quite sure many Fuji xpro & x100 fans are itching to get into Leica but the price of entry is too high. 

I think you'd find a cut price M wouldn't feel like an M either. It's feel like an XPro with no AF. What do they cut to lower the cost and still have the heft and build of an M?

And, do people really see the SL2-S as the lower tier camera to the SL2? It's just the sensor that's different. Body and menus are identical. Likely there'll only be a single SL3 as it'll have the variable resolution of the M11.

Gordon

Edited April 3, 2022 by FlashGordonPhotography

[Photoworks]

11 hours ago, cboy said:

The summarit line was the lens not the body. The typ no. got people confused whereas the S,D,M designation works well imo. And since Leica have discontinued the aspc CL, why not a lower tier FF CL? I'm quite sure many Fuji xpro & x100 fans are itching to get into Leica but the price of entry is too high. 

Chanel and Hermes and so is Leica are increasing prices. Not sure why a luxury brand would decrease their prestige to come up with a low budget version. Would that not decrees the fuji fanboys to acquire a low-end Leica ? In any case the Q2 is there for that, in the other systems from Leica the lenses are the real cost.

the Leica SL2s came out to introduce the next generation to Leica with a good price and trade-in promotions. You may compare the SL2s to the Panasonic S5, but Leica didn't cripple the camera from SL2 unlike Panasonic did in the S5.

[hdmesa]

On 3/20/2022 at 1:02 AM, FranciscoChung said:

...I ended up selling off the M11 & kept my M10.

And here is why :

* Megapixels. For my use, 24mp is plenty and actually prefers to 60mp, as it’s much easier to handle & touch up.

* Dynamic range & low light improvements were minimal for my use. (Social medias & share photo with loved ones)

* I already own ND filters for my Noct & fast lenses, so Low ISO of 64 is not a must.

* Wifi transfer is faster on M11, but M10 is good enough as I am used to film & M-D shooting style.

* White Balance & Light meter is more predictable on M10. When shooting many shots in a row, M10 gives more consistant look. M11 produced inconsistsnt “warm & cold” look. I can trust my M10 but I could not with M11.

* I shoot like film camera so fast shooting or better buffer is not necessary. 

* Battery life. I already own total three M10 battaries which is enough to get me through even a heavy day of shooting.

* I don’t have to baby my M10 like I need to with M11. I can take it everywhere throw it in my bag & go. I was quite afraid of scratching or rubbing M11 Black Chrome. When I first unboxed it, I noticed black paint powders in the clear plastic bag that the camera came in. Like dust particles falling off.

* I always turn off my lcd while shooting and always use the view finder. So the new Menu does not affect me, and improved live view had minimal usage.

* I still sold M11 for the retail price that I paid for after weeks of use as wait time is up to 4 months here (South Korea) and demand is very high.

* M11 was a great camera, but I was not comfortable spending 11,000 USD (price here inc tax) extra, when I could enjoy most of “new” M camera experience with a camera that I already own. 

...

 

My M11 should be here Friday or Monday. My initial thoughts based on yours are below. I'll see how this works out after I've used it for a while. I can certainly see based on your requirements why you sold yours.

Megapixels – The higher resolution is useful to me since I shoot landscape.

DR/Low Light – Welcomed improvements over the SL2/Q2. At 36mp, the output is probably similar to SL2-S, which will be nice.

ND filters – From my perspective, it's not having to buy them that's the problem, it's having to use them.

Wi-Fi – Never use it

White Balance – Shifting WB is a pain for every digital camera I've ever owned. I simply shoot with manual daylight WB and only switch to Auto for indoors at night.

Metering – Having LV metering while using the rangefinder is a huge and welcome improvement for me. This is one of those things that will make using the M more effortless so I can enjoy the manual focus rangefinder experience. Having to shoot, review the LCD, shoot, review the LCD, shoot, review the LCD when using the rangefinder was not enjoyable.

Speed – This is a non-issue for me, too, as long as I can shoot like I would a film camera.

Durability – The paint used on the M10-P Reporter, Q2 Reporter, and now the black M11 has a bit of a rough touch to the surface that eventually wears smoother. But I chose the silver M11 since based on how the paint feels on my Q2R, I don't want my M11 to feel like that.

Battery Life – The irritation for me when using the M10 wasn't having to own several batteries, it was needing to use them.

LCD – Improved resolution is welcome, especially for 60mp image review. New menu like my SL2-S and Q2 is a nice bonus. Intuitive and fast shooting can be hampered for me if I'm often switching between cameras that have menu items in different places.

Summary for me – If I still had my M10-R or M10M, I would have probably waited for the M11-P or M11 Safari. But since I'm coming back to the M, I can't see a compelling reason not to get the M11. 

 

 

[Archiver]

On 4/13/2022 at 6:21 AM, hdmesa said:

Durability – The paint used on the M10-P Reporter, Q2 Reporter, and now the black M11 has a bit of a rough touch to the surface that eventually wears smoother. But I chose the silver M11 since based on how the paint feels on my Q2R, I don't want my M11 to feel like that.

This coating sounds a little problematic, as some owners have reported a fine black dust from this finish in the plastic bag holding the body. If this isn't sufficiently cleaned, it might make its way into the body and sensor. One solution might be to give the top plate and overall body a good rub with a microfibre cloth before use, to remove any residue and smooth out the finish. But why is this even necessary with an AUD $13k+ camera, especially one that is marketed as luxury goods? You don't clean off residual metal polish from an Omega Moonwatch when you take it from the box, you don't wipe off excess conditioner from a new Ferragamo bag, so why should this be the case with a M11?

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Archiver said:

This coating sounds a little problematic, as some owners have reported a fine black dust from this finish in the plastic bag holding the body…

… so why should this be the case with a M11?

It shouldn’t. So far I’ve only read one person say there was black powder in the bag, though. Have there been others? This was never reported for the Q2 Reporter or M10 Reporter cameras.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

8 hours ago, Archiver said:

This coating sounds a little problematic, as some owners have reported a fine black dust from this finish in the plastic bag holding the body. If this isn't sufficiently cleaned, it might make its way into the body and sensor. One solution might be to give the top plate and overall body a good rub with a microfibre cloth before use, to remove any residue and smooth out the finish. But why is this even necessary with an AUD $13k+ camera, especially one that is marketed as luxury goods? You don't clean off residual metal polish from an Omega Moonwatch when you take it from the box, you don't wipe off excess conditioner from a new Ferragamo bag, so why should this be the case with a M11?

This certainly hasn't been an issue on my M11. I like the new coating. A couple of months in and the camera still looks as new.

Gordon

[satijntje]

I did not like the slow shutter so exchanged my silver M11 for a M10-R BLACK PAINT.
 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[IkarusJohn]

So, what will the M11-P address?