I SOLD my Leica M11 …… & Why

[FranciscoChung]

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First of all, I do not want to upset any M11 users here. Everybody uses M cameras to their liking and I believe M11 is the perfect camera for many shooters out there. On paper, it sure is the rightful heir to the M line. I’m just want to give me two cents on why M11 did not work for me.

I’ve been M10 (Silver Chrome) shooter for the past 3 years and I mosly use my trusty M10 to take photos of my family to post pics on socials or to share with friends & family. Does not do any commercial work with it. I own M10, M9-P, M-D(Digital), MP(Film), M3, M2 & several Barnacks, bunch of film cameras as well as Canon R6 with all the L- lenses.

During the past couple weeks, I had a pleasure of owning M11 Black Chrome. I was in heaven playing with my new “toy”, just loved shooting with it. But the more I shot, the faster I came back down to earth. I ended up selling off the M11 & kept my M10.
And here is why :

* Megapixels. For my use, 24mp is plenty and actually prefers to 60mp, as it’s much easier to handle & touch up.

* Dynamic range & low light improvements were minimal for my use. (Social medias & share photo with loved ones)

* I already own ND filters for my Noct & fast lenses, so Low ISO of 64 is not a must.

* Wifi transfer is faster on M11, but M10 is good enough as I am used to film & M-D shooting style.

* White Balance & Light meter is more predictable on M10. When shooting many shots in a row, M10 gives more consistant look. M11 produced inconsistsnt “warm & cold” look. I can trust my M10 but I could not with M11.

* I shoot like film camera so fast shooting or better buffer is not necessary. 

* Battery life. I already own total three M10 battaries which is enough to get me through even a heavy day of shooting.

* I don’t have to baby my M10 like I need to with M11. I can take it everywhere throw it in my bag & go. I was quite afraid of scratching or rubbing M11 Black Chrome. When I first unboxed it, I noticed black paint powders in the clear plastic bag that the camera came in. Like dust particles falling off.

* I always turn off my lcd while shooting and always use the view finder. So the new Menu does not affect me, and improved live view had minimal usage.

* I still sold M11 for the retail price that I paid for after weeks of use as wait time is up to 4 months here (South Korea) and demand is very high.
 

* M11 was a great camera, but I was not comfortable spending 11,000 USD (price here inc tax) extra, when I could enjoy most of “new” M camera experience with a camera that I already own. 

There are many more reasons, but those are major ones. Maybe I can discuss further if it comes to that. 

Please let me know your thought on this. I’m very curious to what other M10 series users thinks of M11. 
Thank you.

FC

Edited March 20, 2022 by FranciscoChung

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[LeicaR10]

Francisco Chung,   You are not alone.  I found a number of the same points and reasons why I sold the M11 after 4+ weeks and 2500+ images.  I went back to using a SL2-S with M lenses and that is all that I need to create my genre of photographs.  For many other M11 owners, they love the camera and for them that is great news.  Everyone has different needs depending on their genre of photography.  At the end of the day, it gets down to content of the photograph.  The camera and lens are the means that helps the photographer achieve their creative vision.  In your case, your Leica collection works for you and that is all that matters.  Keep creating.  r/ Mark

[Al Brown]

Welcome to the forum!
Sometimes things do not go as planned, even for new M11 owners. Let's discuss some of your issues.
- I totally get your point about 24 megapixels, unfortunately you cannot go lower than 60 mpix on M11 so if you prefer smaller files selling would be the only logical option.
- A good ND filter can make the difference between ISO 100 and ISO 64 fade away so no need for that extra ISO sensitivity pull either.
- The inconsistencies during M11 automatic white balance regarding the "warm & cold" look have been well documented in Leica White Papers and here in the forum and Leica has been working on improvements around the clock via software updates to fix this issue.
- The new menu is not that much better anyway so your point about shutting the LCD off is very valid, you practically get the very expensive "D" version of the camera for free.
- Many M11 new adopters are furious when they hear some folks calling the M11 "the best digital Leica M ever made", there are so many red flags - that powder you found after unboxing was the reason alone to return it.

For social media & family photos I usually use Phase One IQ4 with XF body and lens, sometimes it is a struggle with 150 mpix during wifi transfer but man do those photos look good resized to 1000 pixels on Instagram! Totally worth the long transfer wait. Maybe take a sneak peek into this amazing system, you might fall in love.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Al Brown

[M Journey]

That's the beauty of a Leica camera.  Even a 5-year-old camera will be a joy to use and produce great photos.  5 years from now the 10 year old m10 will still be a great camera and many users will happy post a picture of it as their "new to them" camera on the Leica reddit.  If I had another M body I wouldn't love and appreciate my m11 as much as I do having it as my only m body.  Coming from a mirrorless camera, I also had the initial anxiety about using a 20k kit (m11 and 35 apo after accessories and taxes) but have gotten over it quickly.  I find myself really enjoying the new features of the m11 over previous bodies and take great satisfaction in the notion that the photos I take with my kit are the absolute best for a m given my skill level.  I put 3k snaps (many were duplicates of course as I am still learning and trying to trying to nail focus, level, exposure, etc.) during my last trip and am looking forward to my next trip with great anticipation.  I was lucky enough to score the m 35 apo as my first and only Leica lens and saving a little money to use an older m body just doesn't seem right.

I think M bodies are like cars.  A new model will come out quickly but there really isn't a reason to upgrade/trade in your car each year (unless you have the discretionary income to do so, and that's why car leases are a thing). You only buy a newer car if your current car costs isn't worth the cost to keep running (I am hoping my 2011 has another good 5 years in it).  It's good that Leica continues to push out new models every 4-5 years so when your m body dies and you need a new one, you can get one with more up to date technology and conveniences.

My only regret is not having enough reason to shoot with the m more.  I have no kids and no pets and the city I live in isn't interesting enough to take photos on my walks or when I'm out about town.  I am hoping to get to 10k snaps by the end of the year and have a few trips lined up this year which should get me there.

 

[Guest]

Why do you first need to acquire the M11 to realize that you don’t need its features? It should have been pretty obvious in advance. And yes, I mostly agree with your arguments.

[Viv]

2 minutes ago, Studienkamera said:

Why do you first need to acquire the M11 to realize that you don’t need its features? It should have been pretty obvious in advance. And yes, I mostly agree with your arguments.

It was obvious to me. Which is why I did not buy this camera.

[Chaemono]

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb FranciscoChung:

First of all, I do not want to upset any M11 users here. Everybody uses M cameras to their liking and I believe M11 is the perfect camera for many shooters out there. On paper, it sure is the rightful heir to the M line. I’m just want to give me two cents on why M11 did not work for me.

I’ve been M10 (Silver Chrome) shooter for the past 3 years and I mosly use my trusty M10 to take photos of my family to post pics on socials or to share with friends & family. Does not do any commercial work with it. I own M10, M9-P, M-D(Digital), MP(Film), M3, M2 & several Barnacks, bunch of film cameras as well as Canon R6 with all the L- lenses.

During the past couple weeks, I had a pleasure of owning M11 Black Chrome. I was in heaven playing with my new “toy”, just loved shooting with it. But the more I shot, the faster I came back down to earth. I ended up selling off the M11 & kept my M10.
And here is why :

* Megapixels. For my use, 24mp is plenty and actually prefers to 60mp, as it’s much easier to handle & touch up.

* Dynamic range & low light improvements were minimal for my use. (Social medias & share photo with loved ones)

* I already own ND filters for my Noct & fast lenses, so Low ISO of 64 is not a must.

* Wifi transfer is faster on M11, but M10 is good enough as I am used to film & M-D shooting style.

* White Balance & Light meter is more predictable on M10. When shooting many shots in a row, M10 gives more consistant look. M11 produced inconsistsnt “warm & cold” look. I can trust my M10 but I could not with M11.

* I shoot like film camera so fast shooting or better buffer is not necessary. 

* Battery life. I already own total three M10 battaries which is enough to get me through even a heavy day of shooting.

* I don’t have to baby my M10 like I need to with M11. I can take it everywhere throw it in my bag & go. I was quite afraid of scratching or rubbing M11 Black Chrome. When I first unboxed it, I noticed black paint powders in the clear plastic bag that the camera came in. Like dust particles falling off.

* I always turn off my lcd while shooting and always use the view finder. So the new Menu does not affect me, and improved live view had minimal usage.

* I still sold M11 for the retail price that I paid for after weeks of use as wait time is up to 4 months here (South Korea) and demand is very high.
 

* M11 was a great camera, but I was not comfortable spending 11,000 USD (price here inc tax) extra, when I could enjoy most of “new” M camera experience with a camera that I already own. 

There are many more reasons, but those are major ones. Maybe I can discuss further if it comes to that. 

Please let me know your thought on this. I’m very curious to what other M10 series users thinks of M11. 
Thank you.

FC

All obvious reasons not to buy the camera in the first place. It’s flabbergasting that one would acquire an M11 based on this list.

[tom0511]

Maybe the OP did expect more instead of less predictable white balance/colors, and maybe he did expect more consistent exp metering. Maybe he did expect improved dynamic range.

The point might be many people rave about new cameras and sensors, and as soon as one gets such a camera in hands, it often shows that a) differences are smaller in real world than expected from one generation to next and b) sometimes new products also might have some quirks which are not totally sorted out but might become better with further firmware upgrades. This might be the case with white balance and metering for example.

But yes, many of the points should have been clear upfront. Good thing he didn't loose money and made someone else happy to get a M11 without further wait time.

[FranciscoChung]

2 hours ago, Studienkamera said:

Why do you first need to acquire the M11 to realize that you don’t need its features? It should have been pretty obvious in advance. And yes, I mostly agree with your arguments.

Good point! So many reasons why I got it even if I knew about the some of the facts on paper, but the main reason for the purchase of M11 is very very simple. Because I can. 
 

Why not try on the latest & the greatest when u know theres not even a dime to be lost & all the experience to gain.

Edited March 20, 2022 by FranciscoChung

[FranciscoChung]

2 hours ago, M Journey said:

That's the beauty of a Leica camera.  Even a 5-year-old camera will be a joy to use and produce great photos.  5 years from now the 10 year old m10 will still be a great camera and many users will happy post a picture of it as their "new to them" camera on the Leica reddit.  If I had another M body I wouldn't love and appreciate my m11 as much as I do having it as my only m body.  Coming from a mirrorless camera, I also had the initial anxiety about using a 20k kit (m11 and 35 apo after accessories and taxes) but have gotten over it quickly.  I find myself really enjoying the new features of the m11 over previous bodies and take great satisfaction in the notion that the photos I take with my kit are the absolute best for a m given my skill level.  I put 3k snaps (many were duplicates of course as I am still learning and trying to trying to nail focus, level, exposure, etc.) during my last trip and am looking forward to my next trip with great anticipation.  I was lucky enough to score the m 35 apo as my first and only Leica lens and saving a little money to use an older m body just doesn't seem right.

I think M bodies are like cars.  A new model will come out quickly but there really isn't a reason to upgrade/trade in your car each year (unless you have the discretionary income to do so, and that's why car leases are a thing). You only buy a newer car if your current car costs isn't worth the cost to keep running (I am hoping my 2011 has another good 5 years in it).  It's good that Leica continues to push out new models every 4-5 years so when your m body dies and you need a new one, you can get one with more up to date technology and conveniences.

My only regret is not having enough reason to shoot with the m more.  I have no kids and no pets and the city I live in isn't interesting enough to take photos on my walks or when I'm out about town.  I am hoping to get to 10k snaps by the end of the year and have a few trips lined up this year which should get me there.

 

Great analogy with cars! We as Leica shooters just love having Leica in our hands, I hope your plans line up so that you can enjoy the hobbies you love. There is something very liberating about having all your plans fulfilled ! Happy shooting !

[FranciscoChung]

2 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

Francisco Chung,   You are not alone.  I found a number of the same points and reasons why I sold the M11 after 4+ weeks and 2500+ images.  I went back to using a SL2-S with M lenses and that is all that I need to create my genre of photographs.  For many other M11 owners, they love the camera and for them that is great news.  Everyone has different needs depending on their genre of photography.  At the end of the day, it gets down to content of the photograph.  The camera and lens are the means that helps the photographer achieve their creative vision.  In your case, your Leica collection works for you and that is all that matters.  Keep creating.  r/ Mark

I am glad to know that I’m not the only one and happy that I shared my sentiments towards the M11. We love Leica as a whole no matter what and I’m thankful that I can enjoy my hobby with them. Cheers & Happy shooting!

[FranciscoChung]

18 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

Maybe the OP did expect more instead of less predictable white balance/colors, and maybe he did expect more consistent exp metering. Maybe he did expect improved dynamic range.

The point might be many people rave about new cameras and sensors, and as soon as one gets such a camera in hands, it often shows that a) differences are smaller in real world than expected from one generation to next and b) sometimes new products also might have some quirks which are not totally sorted out but might become better with further firmware upgrades. This might be the case with white balance and metering for example.

But yes, many of the points should have been clear upfront. Good thing he didn't loose money and made someone else happy to get a M11 without further wait time.

Yes, you hear about the white balance problem & improvements on dynamic rage & ISO… but never truly know how good or how bad it is until we truly test them out. You are much more eloquent  & better with words than I. I’m sure they will make improvements and come up with new products that will knock out socks off. (ie. Like true mechanical winding M11-D)

[Sean ASA]

I can't help but think this has some or a lot to do with price and worth of the camera around the neck. When the M10 launched it cost just under 10% more than the M240 did at launch. The M11 costs 33% more than the M10 did at launch. (all UK M240 GBP5100, M10 GBP5600, M11 GBP7500). I fully expected to get the M11 but it has strayed to far away for me to justify it. I could buy it but it's not the best use of my Hobby money.  

[LocalHero1953]

Well done - you got a few weeks of real world experience of using the M11 at zero cost. I read a bit of envy here that others wish they could do the same every time they buy a new camera!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I read a bit of envy here that others wish they could do the same every time they buy a new camera!

If that refers to me, then try not reading between the lines. You are not good in that.

[LocalHero1953]

5 minutes ago, Studienkamera said:

If that refers to me, then try not reading between the lines. You are not good in that.

I could have picked several of the responses.

But don't take it too seriously.

[_Alex_]

I don't intent to be insulting, but it smells like GAS. I've been there, too. New gadget comes out and sounds amazing, but then after you own it, you realize your old kit does just as well for your needs. I'm glad you got your money back when you sold it. 

[Kreeshp]

19 hours ago, Al Brown said:

For social media & family photos I usually use Phase One IQ4 with XF body and lens, sometimes it is a struggle with 150 mpix during wifi transfer but man do those photos look good resized to 1000 pixels on Instagram! Totally worth the long transfer wait. Maybe take a sneak peek into this amazing system, you might fall in love.

Hold on.  Did no one else read this?  You use a $50,000 USD rig to shoot social media and family snaps? 

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[adan]

37 minutes ago, Kreeshp said:

Hold on.  Did no one else read this?  You use a $50,000 USD rig to shoot social media and family snaps? 

I suspect you need to dial up your "sarcasm detector."

.................

Personally, I get the OP's basic technique.

I've never bought a previous M(4-2/6/8/9/10) or rejected one (M240) without a hands-on trial of some kind. Of course those were in the days when I had a personal relationship with a Leica rep (since retired) and "Leica Days," and good used stores, and got access one way or another on or right after announcement day.

Even now I tend to buy a lens, and trade it back in after a few months if I am finding it just doesn't work for me (I consider any loss to be a "rental fee" - worth it for the knowledge gained). it takes me that long to give anything a full workout across many situations.

I've considered getting an M11 to "try out" that way - and selling it if it doesn't deliver what I am hoping for (5-figure ISOs, very clean 18 Mpixel S.DNGs).

But I figured, why get in the way of those who know they want one now? I don't need to be first-in-line every time.

I can wait for a while, and eventually I expect I'll get a shot at the hands-on M11 experience. And sample .DNGs. Or other continued reports here and on other sites. Such as  FranciscoChung's.

Edited March 21, 2022 by adan

[harmen]

1 hour ago, adan said:

I can wait for a while, and eventually I expect I'll get a shot at the hands-on M11 experience

I keenly look forward to reading your insights about the camera and its colors in particular.