First film Leica M camera

[wizard]

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb 250swb:

Why you think I was suggesting the camera couldn't be serviced at all is a product of your own confused thinking.

You are turning words in my mouth again. Nowhere did I think or say that you were suggesting the camera couldn't be serviced at all. You said  I wouldn't go with an M7 because they are becoming difficult to repair. And I responded by saying that this is a myth, and explained why this is a myth. I still stand by what I said. So who's thinking is confused here?

Further, I never said a dealer warranty isn't any good or that a Leica warranty is better than a dealer warranty. I was not concerned about warranties. My point is and was that since there will likely be M7 cameras out there which are still under warranty, they are not becoming difficult to repair. I did not imply to buy one of those cameras over another camera with a dealer warranty, as they will both be serviced and repaired without any problems for the time being.

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb 250swb:

But it makes you wonder if Leica felt obliged to offer a five year warranty just to sell the last ones,

AFAIK, a 5 year warranty applied also in the US for many, many years. Same here in Germany. And the same kind of warranty applied to Leica MP cameras as well. You are again twisting facts by saying makes you wonder if Leica felt obliged to offer a five year warranty just to sell the last ones,

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb 250swb:

... calming nervous buyers who'd over the years heard about all the problems with the M7's electronics.

What??? Spreading yet another myth? The only 'problems with the M7's electronics' I ever heard of was the original DX reader. Leica resolved that issue long ago by replacing the original DX reader with a contactless DX reader free of charge even for cameras with expired warranty (don't know whether they still do that, may be not, but most M7 cameras will y now have the new reader anyway). Do you own an M7? And if so, did you encounter any of 'all' the problems you mentioned? 

There is reason why M7 cameras are getting more and more expensive these days. They have proven to be very reliable and fun to use, and they are one of a kind, as there is no other analogue Leica M camera offering automatic aperture priority exposure control. But don't get me wrong, I am not trying to convince anyone to buy an M7, I am just setting some myths straight.

Edited March 2, 2022 by wizard
addition of text

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[250swb]

1 hour ago, wizard said:

they are not becoming difficult to repair. I did not imply to buy one of those cameras over another camera with a dealer warranty, as they will both be serviced and repaired without any problems for the time being.

 

Of course they are difficult to repair compared with other fully manual cameras. What are the questions when somebody comes to the forum needing their camera repaired? It isn't 'can you give me Leica's address' but 'where can I get my camera repaired?', asking for repairers nearby. And if the shutter stops working on an M7 it's highly unlikely the shutter itself has failed but the circuit board has. And you won't get Sherry, DAG, or the guy down the road fiddling with circuit boards because only Leica has them, so the camera has to go back to Leica. That in itself makes it more difficult to get repairs done, not that Leica won't or can't do it, but it simply isn't very convenient for the owner, especially when the warranty no longer applies. Then there is the expense. Leica have stopped being able to repair the light meter on an M6, not because the meter part itself has failed, but because the circuit board has failed and there no more.

And yes I have had an M7, I won't bore you with it's faults. Oh what the heck I will bore you, shutter failure - circuit board, wouldn't switch on - circuit board, replaced the faulty DX reader, wouldn't switch on - circuit board. All dealt with by my Leica dealer who did the posting back and forth, but latterly it got too expensive to keep.

[Anbaric]

On 3/2/2022 at 10:03 AM, wizard said:

It may be a 20 year old design, but since Leica manufactured that camera until not too long ago, I am sure they have sufficient components to replace faulty ones, if needed. The M6TTL is another story since its production was stopped 20 years ago. I agree with you that purely mechanical cameras may likely be repaired forever (provided you find someone who has the skills to do that) and that with electronic components there may be a replacement problem in the distant future, but then again a) I have not heard of M7 cameras failing prematurely due to electronic problems (rather, they seem to be very reliable), and b) if electronics are considered to represent a problem, then nobody should buy ANY digital camera at all. I fail to understand why the rather minimal electronics of an M7 are presented as a problem, when on the other hand people are prepared to spend a lot more money on a digital M camera.

I'd glad to hear the M7 is proving to be reliable, and long may it remain so. But I'm less optimistic about the timescale for replacement parts, should they be required. We first heard about issues with unavailable M6-TTL circuit boards about 15 years after they stopped making the camera, and it's now about 4 years since M7 production stopped, so maybe in a decade or so some faults may not be fixable. Or perhaps sooner if production came to an end partly because of dwindling stocks of components. Since the design is old, and electronics evolve so quickly, it may no longer be possible to get hold of the parts that Leica was outsourcing (apparently the M6-TTL used a long-discontinued microcontroller chip). And Leica hasn't shown much enthusiasm recently for keeping large stocks of spares. If you bought an M9 or one of its derivatives and your sensor later suffered from the infamous corrosion problem, there were no replacements available by 2020. This was partly because Leica had used up their available stocks of sensors by fitting them to M9 bodies returned as faulty under the replacement programme and selling them on as refurbs. Sadly this meant that the last camera in the series, the M-E Typ 220 that was sold as recently as 2015, may in some cases have had a fully serviceable life of as little as 5 years. So yes, it's worse with digital, but probably not great with any camera that's dependent on electronics.

 

 

M-E Typ 220

Edited March 3, 2022 by Anbaric

[wizard]

Am 2.3.2022 um 18:16 schrieb 250swb:

I won't bore you with it's faults. Oh what the heck I will bore you, shutter failure - circuit board, wouldn't switch on - circuit board, replaced the faulty DX reader, wouldn't switch on - circuit board. All dealt with by my Leica dealer who did the posting back and forth, but latterly it got too expensive to keep.

Well, bad luck then. My M7 has remained faultless since 2007, and is always a joy to use. Even fully mechanical cameras may run into parts availability problems, witness wlaidlaw's recent post in the parallel thread on the M4-2.

 

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Anbaric:

We first heard about issues with unavailable M6-TTL circuit boards about 15 years after they stopped making the camera ...

True, and sadly so, but are you seriously suggesting not to buy any camera with a built-in light meter then? I own and still use quite a few older cameras (Minolta CLE, Pentax ME, Pentax ME super, Pentax LX, Pentax Super A) equipped with electronics comparable to an M7, and they all work just fine. Each to his own I would say, but becoming paranoid about some possible electronics failure which may or may not materialize in the distant future is not my cup of tea.

Edited March 4, 2022 by wizard
addition of text

[Steve Ricoh]

33 minutes ago, wizard said:

Well, bad luck then. My M7 has remained faultless since 2007, and is always a joy to use. Even fully mechanical cameras may run into parts availability problems, witness wlaidlaw's recent post in the parallel thread on the M4-2.

 

True, and sadly so, but are you seriously suggesting not to buy any camera with a built-in light meter then? I own and still use quite a few older cameras (Minolta CLE, Pentax ME, Pentax ME super, Pentax LX, Pentax Super A) equipped with electronics comparable to an M7, and they all work just fine. Each to his own I would say, but becoming paranoid about some possible electronics failure which may or may not materialize in the distant future is not my cup of tea.

When considering an obsolete film camera reliant on electronics for aperture priority, such as the M7 or FM3a, I chose the FM3a because the monetary risk was much less, plus the FM3a shutter will work in full manual mode should the electronic control board fail. The Nikon cost me about £500, and I know the only way to fix it electronically would require a donor camera, but I doubt I’d go down that route. 

[wizard]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb Steve Ricoh:

When considering an obsolete film camera reliant on electronics for aperture priority, such as the M7 or FM3a, I chose the FM3a because the monetary risk was much less, plus the FM3a shutter will work in full manual mode should the electronic control board fail.

Point taken, but one is a rangefinder and the other one is an SLR. If you want to have an aperture priority rangefinder camera, the options are quite limited, and the M7, though expensive,  may be the best option, as most other aperture priority rangefinder cameras are no longer being serviced, to the best of my knowledge at least (Minolta CLE, Zeiss Ikon ZM, Konica Hexar RF).

Edited March 4, 2022 by wizard
correction

[Steve Ricoh]

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1 hour ago, wizard said:

Point taken, but one is a rangefinder and the other one is an SLR. If you want to have an aperture priority rangefinder camera, the options are quite limited, and the M7, though expensive,  may be the best option, as most other aperture priority rangefinder cameras are no longer being serviced, to the best of my knowledge at least (Minolta CLE, Zeiss Ikon ZM, Konica Hexar RF).

My aperture priority rangefinder is an M240. 😊
I truly hope the electronics, circuit card and interconnects were designed with HighRel in mind, eg de-rating components in terms of power dissipation, voltage stress etc, conformally coated circuit card(s), flexi-circuit and interconnects appropriately for a design life of x years (only Leica will know the design aim), and the whole lot type approved for the anticipated environmental stresses in use. It cost enough so I expect the best.

[Steve Ricoh]

Back to the OPs original post. The M6 is my other rangefinder and I’m happy with it, but two things annoy me:

i) rangefinder flare in back lighting;

ii) the top plate is made from zinc, a rather disgusting metal.

[Anbaric]

3 hours ago, wizard said:

True, and sadly so, but are you seriously suggesting not to buy any camera with a built-in light meter then? I own and still use quite a few older cameras (Minolta CLE, Pentax ME, Pentax ME super, Pentax LX, Pentax Super A) equipped with electronics comparable to an M7, and they all work just fine. Each to his own I would say, but becoming paranoid about some possible electronics failure which may or may not materialize in the distant future is not my cup of tea.

Absolutely not! - I have quite a few myself (entirely battery dependent like the M7, not just the meter) and most of them still work. And if I already had an M7 I wouldn't spend time worrying about whether it might fail, any more than I do about my F5. But because the recent Leica film bodies are now very expensive cameras, long-term serviceability would factor into my purchase decisions at this point.

[opt817]

I've searched web for additional info and have found Jonathan Notley website with very interesting flow chart for new Leica M buyer:

 

Now I'm in trouble?

[stray cat]

My own journey led me to the M6TTL. Firstly, I occasionally use flash and value TTL flash especially. Secondly, because only the meter is battery dependent. There’s a lot of talk about M6TTL circuit boards failing and being irreplaceable. Well I haven’t actually heard of any failing - yet. I have three of the cameras, one in each viewfinder strength. If and when the boards fail, and this was crucial to my decision, the only thing I’ll lose is the meter. Otherwise the cameras will go on as outstanding meterless cameras exactly like all those meterless Leicas that went before them. I don’t know if the M5 is similar, in that only the meter is battery-dependent, but I know with the M7 and I think the MP that once the circuit board goes, the camera is rendered inoperable. But I have Canons and Nikons from the ‘80s and ‘90s with circuit boards and they’re all still working just fine, so I think the issue is somewhat overstated anyway. As for the dreaded flaring viewfinder patch, I think I’ve noticed it only once or twice in the thirteen years since I bought my first M6TTL, in extreme circumstances where the camera was pointed virtually directly into the sun, and simply shading the top of the camera with a hand on those occasions solved it instantly.

[Kriehuber]

2 minutes ago, stray cat said:

 and I think the MP that once the circuit board goes, the camera is rendered inoperable

The MP is just like your M6 TTLs ( or M5 and  M6  for that matter ), they all work just fine without batteries since they only need it for the meter.

[stray cat]

7 minutes ago, Kriehuber said:

The MP is just like your M6 TTLs ( or M5 and  M6  for that matter ), they all work just fine without batteries since they only need it for the meter.

OK thanks - I should have checked.

[a.noctilux]

19 hours ago, opt817 said:

I've searched web for additional info and have found Jonathan Notley website with very interesting flow chart for new Leica M buyer:

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Now I'm in trouble?

Why ?

I can report that I have (or had) used all of them less M7, every M is fine.

Where is M4-2 ? this one is the less loved, but for me it can do what the other M in the chart can, with Leicameter or handheld meter.

M5 is another less loved M, so cheaper than most with the best 'spot' meter.

[opt817]

I want to thank all Leica lovers for detailed information. 

Old Leica M cameras can be indeed upgraded with The Doomo Meter, which is a small, light accessory meter that serves well for use with older Leicas. It can be mounted on top of camera.

 

[jaapv]

On 2/27/2022 at 8:30 PM, a.noctilux said:

and repearable for years to come.

Except the light meter electronics.

[Danner]

On 3/5/2022 at 3:34 PM, opt817 said:

I've searched web for additional info and have found Jonathan Notley website with very interesting flow chart for new Leica M buyer:

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Now I'm in trouble?

It's remarkable that someone went to the trouble to produce that.  But, I think it's valid and somewhat useful, LOL...

[Huss]

On 3/5/2022 at 1:34 PM, opt817 said:

I've searched web for additional info and have found Jonathan Notley website with very interesting flow chart for new Leica M buyer:

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Now I'm in trouble?

Weird with all that effort he missed out the M4-2.  He should have had another diversion after 'Do you want to use lenses other than 35/50/90'?  It should then go from 'No' to 'Do you want a hot shoe?'.  If No then M2.  If Yes then M4-2.  

"Do you need a built in Light Meter?' -> 'Do you want a spot meter?' -> If Yes, then M5.

Also the Quick Load is not mentioned anywhere.  That is a huge difference in capability, I much prefer it on my M4 + series cameras to my M3s.

Of course I won't mention the M6 available for under $2000...

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[wooden_spoon]

On 3/5/2022 at 4:34 PM, opt817 said:

I've searched web for additional info and have found Jonathan Notley website with very interesting flow chart for new Leica M buyer:

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Now I'm in trouble?

i love this!

[Huss]

8 hours ago, opt817 said:

I want to thank all Leica lovers for detailed information. 

Old Leica M cameras can be indeed upgraded with The Doomo Meter, which is a small, light accessory meter that serves well for use with older Leicas. It can be mounted on top of camera.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

There are lots of options now.  I use the original Leica version, the Voigtlander VCII which this Doomo obviously has copied, and the Reveni Labs meter which is tiny.  It is about 1/2 the size of the Doomo.

The thing I much prefer about the meters which are NOT the Leica ones, is there is far less chance of scratching the camera when you mount them.  The downside is they do not connect to the shutter speed dial, but given the choice I pick less chance of damage to the camera!