Leica APS-C -- No more!

[jaapv]

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Many of us are less narrow-minded, as one of the advantages of the L mount is the ability to use a wide spectrum of lenses.

[Mr.Prime]

On 4/21/2022 at 1:18 PM, jaapv said:

It is not quite a replacement for the CL but more of a complement voor heavier and longer lenses. The things I like are that it is relatively compact for the type of camera-but no match for the CL-and that it can be set to be operated like an analog camera (well, almost) forgetting about all the buttons and menus, more so than CL or SL. It plays very well with Leica lenses, even thé Voigtlander 12mm shows no vignette or nasties. For TL lenses a bit more resolution would be nice. The main gripe is that I need to work the colours to match Leica. 

I too like the CL colours, but I also like Canon colours and lately have been appreciating Kodak Portra colours from my M3 which is very different from the CL. With film there is the option to change the look and feel of your images up front which with digital can be hard to match to a particular film but nonetheless is also flexible if you know what you are doing in PP. It reminds me that perfect colour accuracy is not always wanted in this hobby.

[Vel]

What's the future for our TL lenses if there are no more APS-C L-mount bodies? Seems like a huge waste to use them on a full frame body.

[tritentrue]

It was encouraging to read recently that Sigma is progressing with their full-frame Foveon sensor.  A compact L-mount camera from Sigma in a traditional form factor (unlike the fp L) might be a palatable solution for TL-mount lens owners looking for an updated body.

[rivi1969]

On 3/5/2022 at 8:53 AM, Enrique Santa said:

I began in the 80's with an Oly OM1 and a B&W lab. I have learned that the IQ of my apsc cams, Fuji EX 2S and my CL are miles away from those from my first Oly, are much better, so I don't need FF at all. I could understand FF for "pros" full of dials controls menus , video functions, gps...etc, etc. I only need a cam with manual aperture (ring in the lens better), manual speed and manual Iso and over all: good lenses. I think camera brands are wrong adding more and more functons on every model that some of us never use. They must rethink what kind of cams are they going to develop... Cameras for cellulars phones, expensive cams for pros or cams for amateurs or people that loves photography like us. In this third class is where apcs must have a clear advantage. Forget about video, gps...etc and give us a big quality system with exceptional image output.

Leica have this system in CL, I think that is posible that they think about add wheather selling, gps, ibis, better video, more fr per second...etc, in their next model, making this even more expensive. IMHO they absolutly wrong, what most of us are waiting is a new model with better hight iso capabilities, less noise, better dinamic range and perhaps better af. That is all, Leica must focus in hight quality hardware an the best possible output. They have an exellent example in their M line simplicity, it's hard to understand why they don't do the same with their apsc system.

Let Canon, Nikon and Sony make garbage for youtubers and please Leica focus in real photographers more than in rich collectionist.

The Nikon Z line is FAR from garbage, obviously you haven't use or maybe not even seen a Z9 so you might be unaware of their capabilities of the quality of the Nikkor glass.

Some folks really need to stop drinking red Kool-Aid. Geez. 

[jaapv]

On 4/26/2022 at 3:14 AM, tritentrue said:

It was encouraging to read recently that Sigma is progressing with their full-frame Foveon sensor.

As far as I am aware they have been doing so for nearly a decade  

[LocalHero1953]

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1 hour ago, jaapv said:

As far as I am aware they have been doing so for nearly a decade  

When Sigma launch a full frame Foveon camera we'll know that fusion reactors will be ready to launch.

[tritentrue]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

As far as I am aware they have been doing so for nearly a decade  

Actually, Mr. Yamaki gave an update a little over a year ago to inform that the sensor they had developed to that point could not go into production because of a flaw.

The more recent update, to which I referred above, was that Sigma's current full-frame Foveon sensor is capable of going into production.

I trust this clarifies for the pedants among us. 🙄

 

[jaapv]

Believe when see. It will almost certainly not be suited for wider Leica M lenses due to the well depth, though. 

[raadoo]

26 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Believe when see. It will almost certainly not be suited for wider Leica M lenses due to the well depth, though. 

Did you mean the incidence angle for wide M lenses and the very likely lack of microlenses to compensate for those edge-of-field aberrations like an M camera would?

Or did you mean the full well of the Foveon sensor? I'm guessing the former but I'm curious about any more details you may have if it's the latter.

Edited May 4, 2022 by raadoo
clarification

[budjames]

On 2/21/2022 at 8:01 PM, Louis said:

I don’t agree at all with the way Leica AG is run. I do understand that with “cellulars”, the market for APSC is becoming very tight, but cellulars are not for real photographers and APSC are. No cellular can replace any APSC. 
Abandoning APSC is not a solution, but improving it, is.

Fuji has done very well with their excellent series of APS-C sensor line. I shot Fuji-X for five years before switching to Leica in late 1997. Fuji lenses are great, particularly their prime lenses.

I think that Leica has decided to focus on its core strengths, the M and SL lines. The good news is that they can direct all resources to their current lineup. Good for us M and SL shooters. BTW, I received my M11 5 weeks ago and took it on a 9 day trip to UK and Holland. It is awesome!

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography.

[jaapv]

The former. Due to the three-layered construction of the senses they cannot be shallow enough. 

 

28 minutes ago, raadoo said:

Did you mean the incidence angle for wide M lenses and the very likely lack of microlenses to compensate for those edge-of-field aberrations like an M camera would?

Or did you mean the full well of the Foveon sensor? I'm guessing the former but I'm curious about any more details you may have if it's the latter.

 

[lct]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

The former. Due to the three-layered construction of the sensels they cannot be shallow enough. 

Too bad i did not know that. Would you have a link to such thickness by chance? Just curious.

[jaapv]

If you look at a drawing of a Foveon Sensel you will see that it has a stack of three colour filters and sensitive layers the main problems are crosstalk and light cutoff to the corners. 

[nicci78]

2 hours ago, tritentrue said:

Actually, Mr. Yamaki gave an update a little over a year ago to inform that the sensor they had developed to that point could not go into production because of a flaw.

The more recent update, to which I referred above, was that Sigma's current full-frame Foveon sensor is capable of going into production.

I trust this clarifies for the pedants among us. 🙄

 

https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2022/02/22/sigmas-full-frame-foveon-sensor-is-still-in-development

They are only beginning stage 2 over 3. 

It will be a long time before we can see a 24x36 foveon camera. 

Maybe 2025 or 2026 at this rate (two years per stage)

Edited May 4, 2022 by nicci78

[tritentrue]

3 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2022/02/22/sigmas-full-frame-foveon-sensor-is-still-in-development

They are only beginning stage 2 over 3. 

It will be a long time before we can see a 24x36 foveon camera

Better ring up Mr. Yamaki and let him know so he can get his company's story straight . . . 🙄

Betcha we'll see full-frame Foveon before we see a CL2, though . . . . 

[nicci78]

easy, there will be no CL2, and Mr Yamaki is exactly saying that it will take time. Every stage is essential. (meaning it will take a very long time)

We don't know how much time Sigma took for the first full frame foveon sensor they flushed down the toilet. 

Starting over will take at least the same amount of time. 3-5 years for development is not far fetch. 

He knows exactly how long it will take, but refuse to say it out loud, in fear of customer panicking. Hence the annual updates. 

What I can see is Sigma only managed to finished stage 1 over 3 in two years. How long will took Stage 2 ? Then how long for stage 3 ? Then how long for the production to begin ? 

With chip shortage, the distance between Sigma in Japan and Foveon team in USA, COVID, war in Ukraine, etc... R&D may be at its slowest pace. 

So don't believe that Foveon will be soon available, far from it. And it is from Yamaki own words. 

 

Quote

Full press release:

Dear SIGMA customers, 

First of all, thank you very much for your continued support and interest in our products.

SIGMA would like to share the development status of the three-layer image sensor as of February 2022 by the following.

The development of the three-layer image sensor is currently underway with the strong leadership of SIGMA’s headquarters in collaboration with research institutes in Japan. The stages of development can be roughly divided into the following:

• Stage 1: Repeated design simulations of the new three-layer structure to confirm that it will function as intended. 

• Stage 2: Prototype evaluation using a small image sensor with the same pixel size as the product specifications but with a reduced total pixel count to verify the performance characteristics of the image sensor in practice. 

 

• Stage 3: Final prototype evaluation using a full-frame image sensor with the same specifications as the mass products including the AD converter etc…

We believe that these three stages are necessary in the development, and we are currently in the process of creating the prototype sensor for Stage 2.

Based on the evaluation results of the prototype sensor, we will decide whether to proceed to Stage 3 or to review the design data and re-prototype “Stage 2”. When we proceed to Stage 3, we will verify the mass-producibility of the sensor with research institutes and manufacturing vendors based on the evaluation results, and then make a final decision on whether or not to mass-produce the image sensor. 

Although we have not yet reached the stage where we can announce a specific schedule for the mass production of the image sensor, we are determined to do our best to realize a camera that will truly please our customers who are waiting for it, as soon as possible. 

 

Once again, I would like to thank all of you for your continued support of SIGMA. 

We will continue to strive for technological development to meet your expectations and trust. 

Kazuto Yamaki 

Chief Executive Officer, SIGMA Corporation

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by nicci78

[Enrique Santa]

11 hours ago, rivi1969 said:

The Nikon Z line is FAR from garbage, obviously you haven't use or maybe not even seen a Z9 so you might be unaware of their capabilities of the quality of the Nikkor glass.

Some folks really need to stop drinking red Kool-Aid. Geez. 

Please don't take my words out of context.

Thank you¡

[IkarusJohn]

On 3/6/2022 at 3:53 AM, Enrique Santa said:

Let Canon, Nikon and Sony make garbage for youtubers and please Leica focus in real photographers more than in rich collectionist.

So, what did you mean by that?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jaapv]

That brand names take precedent of photographic quality.