Leica APS-C -- No more!

[Enrique Santa]

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4 hours ago, jaapv said:

Has anybody thought of the simple explanation that Leica might be waiting for a suitable APS-C sensor with more than 24 MP?

The Fujifilm X H2 is rumoured with two sensors  XH2s 26mp and XH2 40mp, so it's posible we can see some new apsc cameras with more resolution. Sony shows last year a new apsc sensor with 43mp. 

Anycase the fact that Leica have not launch any new apsc lens since 2017 is a bad sign . 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Enrique Santa

[Mr.Prime]

Well it seems this thread has now developed a more optimistic tone thanks to a well placed interjection. After giving Leica a good telling off, we can all go back to taking photos with a smile of satisfaction. And we’ll be waiting for rumours, hints and news of exciting new developments that we’ve all just told Leica to get on and design for us. 🙂

 

[jaapv]

35 minutes ago, Enrique Santa said:

Sony shows last year a new apsc sensor with 43mp.

The problem here is the  production of such sensors. It needs 5 nm, maybe 3 nm lithography machines - and ASML has a 5 or more year delay in its order book.

[J12]

9 hours ago, lct said:

You could have quoted the Porsche 914 too. 

I like Porsche. My favorite is the 356 Speedster. Which is closely related to the VW Beetle. At the end of the day branding and image is all a construction. Pricing for any product is often simply what the market will bear. Products should be individually judged on their inherent qualities. Not constructs such as brand image or potentially misleading barometers like price.

 

Back to cameras, I think the TL2 and CL were great and can see why there's such vocal enthusiasm for their continuation. With the way things are going I imagine any replacement might be a high megapixel full size 35mm sensor in a compact L-mount body. I did find the TL2 very useful as compact backup that also acts as a teleconverter for L, M and R lenses. I might miss that aspect. But if enough MP in a full size sensor, maybe not.

[tritentrue]

🤫

Edited April 14, 2022 by tritentrue
Edited

[Simone_DF]

14 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Few sensible people operate their credit cards with permanent debit balances incurring expensive monthly interest payments ... But some of you suggest / expect Leica Camera AG could / should operate at a loss to provide your hardware? From where would Leica 'make up' the $£€ shortfall? 

Did you know that the Playstation 5 is sold at a loss?

Sony makes money with their subscription plan and by selling digital games.

Of course Leica is no Sony, but the point is that companies make a profit in many different ways, and some of them might surprise you.

[tritentrue]

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7 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Can't wait to see the new carbon fibre bodied lightweight compact FF 60mp L-mount body  

This would be the cost-cutting technology Nikon's been using since 2013 in its consumer DSLR bodies like the bottom-of-the-line D3400?  And with the Sony 60mp sensor that produces images noisier than the ones from their APS-C cameras?  Integrated with more china-made innards?  And, oh, let me guess---offered at $8-9k?

No, thanks . . . I ain't that "daft."   

[LocalHero1953]

9 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

I already use my S1R as an APS-C 'TL'  lens platform ... and contrary to a learned TLF member's opinion it is definitely  not the  'ludicrous' combination he implies ... especially as it has a very useful 'articulated screen'  

Some courtesy would have cited me as the source of the remark. Using a S1R to mount TL lenses, if you already have a S1R, is a reasonable option. I occasionally do the same with both SL2-S and Sigma fp. Your actual advice was "If you want a decent 'L-mount' APS-C platform, consider acquiring e.g. a Panasonic S1R (20.68mp in APS-C mode) ... and a bigger camera bag". CL/T owners can decide for themselves if this is ludicrous or helpful, or not.

[wlaidlaw]

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

The problem here is the  production of such sensors. It needs 5 nm, maybe 3 nm lithography machines - and ASML has a 5 or more year delay in its order book.

I don't mind waiting. A report I read a few weeks ago said they anticipated a chip and sensor surplus in 2 to 3 years time, as so many new fabrication plants/chip foundries were currently being built or planned. The only bottleneck could be the essential and very high tech chip manufacturing equipment, most of which comes from just one or two companies (one in the Netherlands). 

Wilson😃

[nicci78]

@dkCambridgeshire
I will never use such huge body even if you give to me for free. 
S1R is such a cumbersome camera. 
Market speaks for itself : nobody wants it. It was a commercial failure. 
Panasonic only see moderate success with smaller S5. 
 

No matter what you think. Mirrorless = small in the head of potential buyers. Why ? Because Panasonic and Olympus marketing told us so 13 years ago. 
 

Sony is the market leader in mirrorless. Their bodies are small. Even professional A1. 
 

You want big body and big lenses ? Plenty of huge and competent DSLR everywhere. 
Fun fact, most of those DSLR and their lenses are smaller than S1/S1R with their ludicrously large lenses. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by nicci78

[dkCambridgeshire]

29 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Some courtesy would have cited me as the source of the remark. Using a S1R to mount TL lenses, if you already have a S1R, is a reasonable option. I occasionally do the same with both SL2-S and Sigma fp. Your actual advice was "If you want a decent 'L-mount' APS-C platform, consider acquiring e.g. a Panasonic S1R (20.68mp in APS-C mode) ... and a bigger camera bag". CL/T owners can decide for themselves if this is ludicrous or helpful, or not.

OK ... Ludicrous when I use the combo ... But not so ludicrous when you occasionally use similar ??  No further comment. 

[nicci78]

I am today perfectly happy with my Ricoh GR III/IIIx full setup. 
It is refreshing to change brand. Ricoh offering is quite awesome : 

- effective IBIS (Q2 OIS looks like a useless toy next to it).  
- very nice screen. I never realised how dimmed Q2 and CL rear screens were, before putting them next to GR III very bright one. 
- excellent ergonomics, superior to Q2 and CL with their wandering focus point, which moves wherever it wants and never stay put in the center. This point drives users crazy and Leica refuses to fix it for years. 
- superior touch panel. This the way to make touch screen. It is way better than TL2. 
- excellent optics. It is splendid. Especially GR IIIx. 
- über tiny. It is really the way to make good use of APS-C sensor. 
- TTL flash that works !!! Leica should be ashamed of their useless flash system. Never the same exposure with Leica. 
- USB-C charging. Yeah it is neat. 
 

However GR III biggest issue is the lack of EVF. For some it is a deal breaker. 

[jaapv]

39 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

I don't mind waiting. A report I read a few weeks ago said they anticipated a chip and sensor surplus in 2 to 3 years time, as so many new fabrication plants/chip foundries were currently being built or planned. The only bottleneck could be the essential and very high tech chip manufacturing equipment, most of which comes from just one or two companies (one in the Netherlands). 

Wilson😃

Yes. I heard an interview with the CEO of ASML. It is not possible to ramp up the production of the newest high-resolution lithographs short-term so the main bottleneck will be in the most advanced chips. 

[Cobram]

Guys, be patient...Based on the introduction of "Leica" L mount 24-70 zoom lens I anticipate a smaller full frame camera is coming in next months.🤣

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

OK ... Ludicrous when I use the combo ... But not so ludicrous when you occasionally use similar ??  No further comment. 

Just ludicrous to advise others to buy a S1R to use instead of a CL for APS-C.

As I wrote: "Using a S1R to mount TL lenses, if you already have a S1R, is a reasonable option."

Edited April 14, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[jankap]

. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by jankap

[jankap]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

However GR III biggest issue is the lack of EVF. For some it is a deal breaker. 

You can still improve your happiness (outside Leica🤫)by using a Hoodman loupe as substitution for the missing EVF.

[nicci78]

Leica should learn to iterate. Not to give up at the first excuse. 
Their APS-C adventure is a mess. 
It started well with X1. Then X2 (which should get a better screen instead of better sensor). 
And suddenly the horror begins : big X Vario typ 109 and X typ 113. Bad marketing (mini M fiasco). Same sensor as X2. Big body. No EVF. 
They make a mistake with X line. But instead of correcting it with a proper and small X2.
 

They go to the T. A camera that did not suit Leica demographics. Then TL due to copyright issue with T-Mobile. The TL2 (new sensor but no flash). TL2 got a false start with a recall due to Visoflex typ 020 bricking the camera. Really ? Nobody plug the EVF on TL2 before ? 
Once again a failure. 
 

So they try to kill two birds with one stone : replacing X line with Elmarit-TL 18mm and the mighty Barnack’s size CL. 
Sales are decent. But for obscure reason : no more new lens. And no CL2. 
After 4 years it does not sell well anymore (obviously nobody will buy an old camera at full price, it just need a successor). 
Successor that might be scrapped for an hypothetical camera in a distant future. 

They should have released CL2 in 2021. It would have been a success. Especially with IBIS. 
Iteration leds to perfection. Resetting every time only leds to deception. 
 

Look at iPhone : 15 iterations. 
Ricoh GR : 13 iterations. 
Leica M : 13 iterations. 
 

Leica X : 3 iterations. 
TL and SL : 2 iterations. 
CL : 1 try only. 

 

Best products are the one existing for a long time, that the manufacturer keep making it better over time. 

[FrozenInTime]

41 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Leica should learn to iterate. Not to give up at the first excuse. 
Their APS-C adventure is a mess. 
It started well with X1. Then X2 (which should get a better screen instead of better sensor). 
And suddenly the horror begins : big X Vario typ 109 and X typ 113. Bad marketing (mini M fiasco). Same sensor as X2. Big body. No EVF. 
They make a mistake with X line. But instead of correcting it with a proper and small X2.
 

They go to the T. A camera that did not suit Leica demographics. Then TL due to copyright issue with T-Mobile. The TL2 (new sensor but no flash). TL2 got a false start with a recall due to Visoflex typ 020 bricking the camera. Really ? Nobody plug the EVF on TL2 before ? 
Once again a failure. 
 

So they try to kill two birds with one stone : replacing X line with Elmarit-TL 18mm and the mighty Barnack’s size CL. 
Sales are decent. But for obscure reason : no more new lens. And no CL2. 
After 4 years it does not sell well anymore (obviously nobody will buy an old camera at full price, it just need a successor). 
Successor that might be scrapped for an hypothetical camera in a distant future. 

They should have released CL2 in 2021. It would have been a success. Especially with IBIS. 
Iteration leds to perfection. Resetting every time only leds to deception. 
 

Look at iPhone : 15 iterations. 
Ricoh GR : 13 iterations. 
Leica M : 13 iterations. 
 

Leica X : 3 iterations. 
TL and SL : 2 iterations. 
CL : 1 try only. 

 

Best products are the one existing for a long time, that the manufacturer keep making it better over time. 

Add the X-U to the list.

Some of the blame for the lack of CL2 must fall to Sony deprioritising APS-C for their own use - dropping in a 40+ Mpixel sensor into the CL chassis seems like the missing bridge - i.e. second iteration on the platform. The third iteration would be require major reworking to add IBIS.

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[tritentrue]

2 hours ago, Cobram said:

Guys, be patient...Based on the introduction of "Leica" L mount 24-70 zoom lens I anticipate a smaller full frame camera is coming in next months.🤣

You mean made by Sigma?  If it doesn't have a Sony 60mp sensor, a MIJ Sigma-badged version would surely be of interest.