Leica APS-C -- No more!

[Enrique Santa]

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8 hours ago, lct said:

No offense intended of course  but expecting camera brands like Leica to behave like Sony or Fuji would be a bit naive IMHO. In small companies like this one cannot afford the luxury of losing money on one product line to compensate with another one. If your product does not sell with profit it has to go. Leica has been procrastisnating for too long on the R line that could not compete for lack of AF then. We may find this sad or unfair from a consumer's point of view but Leica did not do the same mistake on APS-C apparently. Won't prevent me to use my CL with pleasure in the years to come pending the arrival of new compact FF cameras hopefully.

You are right...Leica must earn some money and we, their coustomers must buy their "cheap" products , even if they stop these without saying a world.

I miss a lot , kindness in every aspect of life , today this is the real LUXURY , feel that you are more than well treated . The real thing is that Leica, is far from this, it seem their only interest is earn money even  treating their coustomers as garbage, like we are with their apsc system.

What they don't understand is that they have lost me as a coustomer, not for apsc but for any Leica product.

My eyes are fixed at Sigma and Voightlander , their lenses are superb and the next iteration of their Fp L is really promising and at a fraction of Leica price.

So yes I will continue using my lovely CL and lenses even if they are made by a company with zero honestity.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Enrique Santa

[lct]

My eyes are fixed on Leica, Sigma, Voigtlander and photography in general but i don't understand what you mean about garbage and honesty sorry. If you find that Leica products are too expensive, you are not alone but you don't have to buy them obviously.

[Enrique Santa]

44 minutes ago, lct said:

My eyes are fixed on Leica, Sigma, Voigtlander and photography in general but i don't understand what you mean about garbage and honesty sorry. If you find that Leica products are too expensive, you are not alone but you don't have to buy them obviously.

Honestity is what you expect from a brand like Leica to their users, apcs users that have been  treated like garbage by Leica. Sorry if you can't understand this. 

And  yes Leica is expensive, for this reason we expect to be well treated, but if Leica  sell very expensive products and I bought them, because I can, I deserve to be treated by Leica like a KING . The way Leica has managed the end of their apsc line is everything but not honest at all, at least with their coustomers.

Obviously you are free to feel happy with this brand, for me is a BIG DECEPTION and a clear case for bussines schools to teach how not to treat your coustomers base.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Enrique Santa

[lct]

Enrique, you are not a king more so than i am. We own both a superb little camera, the Leica CL. We can use it with nice lenses, be they Leica, Sigma, Voigtlander, Minolta and the like and we can go on doing this in the years to come if we want to. But we have not the least right to ask Leica for doing anything else than honouring their warranty. 

[jmschuh]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Mr.Prime:

The danger for Leica is simple, their customers are old men and they are hoping to get older. It's great that the CL will work for many more years, along with the SL etc. Without new and younger buyers there's no future for Leica. Are these future buyers in China?

About 15-20 years ago I was in Wetzlar at a large event with product demonstrations and presentations by Leica and Leica photographers. It was a time when Leica was not doing very well and for more than 10 years Leica was struggling intensively to survive. Leica didn't have any exciting digital products yet, the R system was dying because Leica had failed to integrate AF for years, and the M system was kind of boring too. So it looked anything but good for Leica and at this event in Wetzlar I was one of the youngest among the visitors with about 30 years.

I looked at the other visitors and thought to myself: How can Leica survive because 95% of the customers around me will be dead in 10 years. It looked like a meeting from the old people's home. 10 years later, Leica was doing extremely well, and even years later, when many camera manufacturers were only making losses, Leica was still doing well. The last two years have been a challenging time for many manufacturers and the current developments don't make it any easier. But I think Leica will survive it all, but only if they don't try to develop products that are no different from Nikon, Canon or Sony products. And the necessary uniqueness can only come from Leica making products that are easier to use, that go back to the roots of photography (German: "Das Wesentliche"), and not an egg-sucking jack-in-the-box like Canon, Nikon or Sony. Leica is too small to functionally outperform the big Japanese competitors, so they have to do just the opposite. Fewer features, buttons and options, but state of the art. 

And about the prices: Leica was never, even 80 years ago, particularly cheap. I also don't see Leica prices being particularly high prices of true luxury items. If I want something like a Leica Q from another manufacturer today, i.e. full frame with 50MP and a very very good 28mm lens, I will not get a solution that is cheaper from any manufacturer.

If you want a good APS-C system today or in the last years, you were not in good hands with Leica anyway, but rather with Fujifilm. Many cameras and many very good lenses. And we have to be honest, with exceptions, the Leica TL lenses were all no gems. 

But in the end APS-C will suffer the same fate as MFT. The market share will become smaller and will disappear one day, because full frame is already a sweet spot. And for those who choose APS-C because it is smaller and lighter, there is still a lot of potential to make Fullframe cameras smaller, just as small as they were in analog times. Just think of the stylish little cameras that manufacturers like Olympus or Rollei and others sold in the 1980s. There's still a lot of room for improvement in the digital world.

[Enrique Santa]

22 minutes ago, lct said:

Enrique, you are not a king more so than i am. We own both a superb little camera, the Leica CL. We can use it with nice lenses, be they Leica, Sigma, Voigtlander, Minolta and the like and we can go on doing this in the years to come if we want to. But we have not the least right to ask Leica for doing anything else than honouring their warranty. 

I'm not a king more than anybody in this forum my friend and yes I'm expecting from Leica something more than a warranty, that every brand must offer. Leica sell us a complete system that now is finished so I feel cheated and more cheated when the only proper way to use my Tl lenses are Cl and Tl cams, please don't tell me about SL , I don't buy tinny lenses to use it cropped in a monster cam.

I don't want Leica to rebought my lenses, I'm waiting for them an explanation, a word, a hope for use my lenses or perhaps a phrase; Sorry boys, we have done really bad with apsc , you have all the right in the world to hit our balls...🙃

Edited April 6, 2022 by Enrique Santa

[MJB]

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I don't understand. There are multiple bodies in the line (T, TL, TL2, CL) and numerous lenses, both prime and zoom, covering focal lengths from 11mm to 135mm. There are good quality, fast, and inexpensive third-party lenses. There is the ability to use any M-mount or R-mount lens with an adapter (not to mention third-party adapters to cover many other mounts). What more do you want? Leica gave it a good go, and it's a pretty fleshed out little system. It would be great if we could get a CL2 before they officially pull the plug, I agree. But if not, there's no reason why you can't continue to enjoy these wonderful cameras and lenses for years to come.

[jmschuh]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Enrique Santa:

Leica sell us a complete system that now is finished

Now? No, you just didn't realize that the system was discontinued 5 years ago. How many more years would you have wanted to wait until the truth replaced the hope?

The Leica T came onto the market in 2014. The last APS-C product of this line in 2017.

It is now 2022.

So there have been products for 3 years and then not a single product at all, neither a camera nor a lens, for 5 years.

It was clear years ago that this system was dead. Anything else was a dream. 

[lct]

18 minutes ago, Enrique Santa said:

I'm not a king more than everybody in this forum my friend and yes I'm expecting from Leica something more than a warranty, that every brand must offer. Leica sell us a complete system that now is finished so I feel cheated and more cheated when the only proper way to use my Tl lenses are Cl and Tl cams, please don't tell me about SL , I don't buy tinny lenses to use it cropped in a monster cam.

I don't Leica to rebought my lenses, I'm waiting for them an explanation, a word, a hope for use my lenses or perhaps a phrase; Sorry boys, we have done really bad with apsc , you have all the right in the world to hit our balls...🙃

Ah my dear Enrique we are repeating ourselves in this thread. You should not feel cheated because you are not, at all. Leica will tell if they have a solution i guess but only if and when they are prepared to do so. For now your CL works fine, your M lenses too if you own some, same for your TL lenses i guess. You can use them on M cameras for the M lenses as well as big SL or smaller Panasonic or Sigma cameras as far as TL lenses are concerned. What's not to like then? That Leica do not make APS-C gear anymore? They don't make the film CL anymore either, or  the superb R bodies and lenses anymore too. Such is life .

Edited April 6, 2022 by lct

[Enrique Santa]

17 minutes ago, lct said:

Ah my dear Enrique we are repeating ourselves in this thread. You should not feel cheated because you are not, at all. Leica will tell if they have a solution i guess but only if and when they are prepared to do so. For now your CL works fine, your M lenses too if you own some, same for your TL lenses i guess. You can use them on M cameras for the M lenses as well as big SL or smaller Panasonic or Sigma cameras as far as TL lenses are concerned. What's not to like then? That Leica do not make APS-C gear anymore? They don't make the film CL anymore either, or  the superb R bodies and lenses anymore too. Such is life .

Amen. But I don't like at all the way you and Leica understand "life".

[lct]

8 minutes ago, Enrique Santa said:

Amen. But I don't like at all the way you and Leica understand "life".

Sorry for that but i wish you my best for your CL and Leica or non Leica lenses anyway.

[Le Chef]

36 minutes ago, MJB said:

I don't understand. There are multiple bodies in the line (T, TL, TL2, CL) and numerous lenses, both prime and zoom, covering focal lengths from 11mm to 135mm. There are good quality, fast, and inexpensive third-party lenses. There is the ability to use any M-mount or R-mount lens with an adapter (not to mention third-party adapters to cover many other mounts). What more do you want? Leica gave it a good go, and it's a pretty fleshed out little system. It would be great if we could get a CL2 before they officially pull the plug, I agree. But if not, there's no reason why you can't continue to enjoy these wonderful cameras and lenses for years to come.

The issue has nothing to do with the product and everything to do with how Leica treats its customers. If you look at other luxury brands their treatment of customers accomplishes many things: 
1) Create a sense of Owners being important to the brand, and therefore justifying the premium. That’s about constant and consistent dialogue.

2) Include Owners in the brand story. That’s how you create brand ambassadors and extend the reach of your media in a more credible way.

3) Previews and Privileges. Owners are included in earlier development of new product “sneak peeks” and as a consequence provide free market research in assessing new products. Small and larger rewards for owning the product. The stories from these then get shared out in the media through ambassadors. The expensive dinner with other Owners at the latest hot restaurant. Paid for trips to the factory, etc.

4) Create a tiered Ownership program. The more you own the better you are treated. So own an M11, and an M10M and you get better treated than someone owning a T. It incentivizes trade-up which means the brand makes more money for lower outgoings.

If you look at all the major luxury brands these things are pretty typical and set benchmarks for luxury goods customers. If Porsche and Patek Philippe treat me in a similar way, then I expect Leica to do the same kind of things if they believe they’re a luxury brand..

By not being inclusive about the end of the CL and TL lenses Leica has likely lost quite a lot of goodwill,  not only with Owners but also with dealers. If you don’t mind losing that kind of value then you must have plenty to burn and hope you have enough to weather the next product failure.

And that comes back full circle. Owners will forgive you some failures - a faulty product here and there,  but if you don’t treat them the way other luxury brands do, then don’t expect loyalty and expect to lose them sooner rather than later.

 

[Louis]

Dear friend, it is very obvious that some folks affiliated to Leica AG are also participating in some Leica fans forums and express the Leica views   “unofficially”; what Leica AG, itself, is refusing to tell us officially.

As we were speculating about any new CL  for a long period of time and waiting for any news, I thought it was proper of me to inform the forum about what I was told by a folk in Wetzlar. Of course, some could not believe!

Now that this situation is accepted by everyone,  It is very normal that many of us are very disappointed.

I hope those Leica “defenders” would get and enjoy their free Leica T-Shirt with the little red dot!  

[lct]

Reminds me of discussion you had at the time of the R demise. R users, including me, were disappointed of course but we (at least i) kept our R lenses and we can still use them on digital bodies.

Edited April 7, 2022 by lct

[Louis]

13 minutes ago, lct said:

Reminds me of discussion you had at the time of the R demise. R users, including me, were disappointed of course but we (at least i) kept our R lenses and we can still use them on digital bodies.

If your comment is addressed to me,; I never had, discussed or commented about R!… Sorry!….

[tritentrue]

16 minutes ago, Louis said:

Dear friend, it is very obvious that some folks affiliated to Leica AG are also participating in some Leica fans forums and express the Leica views   “unofficially”; what Leica AG, itself, is refusing to tell us officially.

As we were speculating about any new CL  for a long period of time and waiting for any news, I thought it was proper of me to inform the forum about what I was told by a folk in Wetzlar. Of course, some could not believe!

Now that this situation is accepted by everyone,  It is very normal that many of us are very disappointed.

I hope those Leica “defenders” would get and enjoy their free Leica T-Shirt with the little red dot!  

After six weeks and 26 pages of discussion on a forum that is Leica-connected, one would think that, seeing the swell of dissatisfaction expressed here, someone from Leica would offer some official comment, either here or through their own portal.  

To borrow a cliche, their silence is deafening. 

[lct]

9 minutes ago, Louis said:

If your comment is addressed to me,; I never had, discussed or commented about R!… Sorry!….

No no it was not and i don't remind having "met" you on the LUF then sorry but R users' disappointment was very similar then.

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, jmschuh said:

About 15-20 years ago I was in Wetzlar at a large event with product demonstrations and presentations by Leica and Leica photographers. It was a time when Leica was not doing very well and for more than 10 years Leica was struggling intensively to survive. Leica didn't have any exciting digital products yet, the R system was dying because Leica had failed to integrate AF for years, and the M system was kind of boring too. So it looked anything but good for Leica and at this event in Wetzlar I was one of the youngest among the visitors with about 30 years.

15-20 years ago the market was very different to what it is today. In was still in an expansion phase, cameras were selling well.

Today the camera market is decreasing year after year for a variety of reasons. Smartphones being the major culprit, to which we have to add a decreased purchasing power for young and not so young generations, 3 (I guess 4 with the war) economical crisis within 10 years, higher costs for materials, scarcity of electronic components and more.

[Le Chef]

22 minutes ago, tritentrue said:

After six weeks and 26 pages of discussion on a forum that is Leica-connected, one would think that, seeing the swell of dissatisfaction expressed here, someone from Leica would offer some official comment, either here or through their own portal.  

To borrow a cliche, their silence is deafening. 

My point made many pages ago was that Leica’s lack of controlling the dialogue meant a group of Owners now control what is said about Leica - the good, the bad and the ugly - to the detriment of Leica’s perception “out there”. It’s their choice to abdicate from that opportunity so in the future they will not be able to complain when positive brand perception declines. Repairing that brand perception is very expensive: far more expensive that simply growing good will.

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[Le Chef]

23 minutes ago, lct said:

No no it was not and i don't remind having "met" you on the LUF then sorry but R users' disappointment was very similar then.

And the fact that the demise of the R was handled so badly and is still discussed today shows how much damage was done and how long memories are.

People still ding Exxon in brand health studies for something that happened 33 years ago: and they refer to it as the Exxon Valdez Disaster. 

BP faced a similar issue with Deepwater initially trying to tough it out and say nothing. The price they paid for not engaging and not being empathetic almost cost them their US business. 

While discontinuing a product line is not in the same order of magnitude to those disasters, it will leave a scar on Leica’s business.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Le Chef