Leica APS-C -- No more!

[robgo2]

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On 2/24/2022 at 7:04 PM, Le Chef said:

"He said that APS-C had not done as well for Leica as they had hoped."

One of the reasons for that was a poor launch strategy - things like not explaining the product positioning or how the product functioned with soft controls to the press, and how it fitted into Leica's longer-term plan. Leica then conveniently seemed to forget to support the CL as a system brand that gave users multiple points of entry and the ability to tailor their needs via different lenses from TL to L to M.

Look at it as a business case study and it's an enormous and expensive f^*k up that with competent management might have succeeded. Maybe they should hire some of the smart people who have made Fuji such a success...

I fully agree that the CL would have sold better, if it had been promoted better by Leica. But as things stand, sales volume has not met expectations, so cross it off the list. Those of us who own a CL know how lucky we are to have found it. Down the road, I hope that Sigma will come out with a CL-like L-Mount camera having enough MPs to give decent resolution with TL lenses. And, of course Leica-like ergonomics would be extra-peachy nice. Please, Sigma, be smart enough to do all of that. 🙏🤞

Edited February 28, 2022 by robgo2

[LocalHero1953]

27 minutes ago, robgo2 said:

I fully agree that the CL would have sold better, if it had been promoted better by Leica. But as things stand, sales volume has not met expectations, so cross it off the list. Those of us who own a CL know how lucky we are to have found it. Down the road, I hope that Sigma will come out with a CL-like L-Mount camera with enough MPs to give decent resolution with TL lenses. And, of course Leica-like ergonomics would be extra-peachy nice. Please, Sigma, be smart enough to do all of that. 🙏🤞

Aside from the shape and the feel in the hands, I find the Sigma fp interface and menus to be excellent: the buttons are almost as good as Leica's, and the menus are better (quicker to navigate, more intuitive, fewer hidden pages). The buttons are not sprayed randomly across the body and, apart from 'AEL', are intuitive. Personally I don't need Tone and Color, but I can see they make some sense in what is mainly a video camera. If they got the size and shape right and included an EVF and physical shutter, I would be happy. They made the choice to make the body fatter to create space for a heat sink, not wider, and there could be enough thickness for IBIS and a decent EVF. The M form factor (thin and wide) makes it tricky for Leica to do the same with that body.

Edited February 28, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[tritentrue]

Regarding cell phones affecting the APS-C market:  Mr. Yamaki (Sigma CEO) made the point a while back that post-digital bubble, yearly sales of digital cameras is comparable to what film camera sales were prior to the digital bubble.  That seems to infer that cell phones cut into the bubble, but not into the traditional photography market.

[sjöbjörn]

A big advantage of APS-c is the smaller size not only of the camera, but especially the lenses compared to full frame.

This is a reason why I like the Leica CL. Of course thera are many more things. 
I would have been interested in a CL 2. For the Moment, I do not see what other camera Leica could make that would be interesting. 

[Mr.Prime]

A lot of what I want from a CL2 is already there in the SL2-S and I’d take FF over APS-C but alas it’s too big & heavy. Nevertheless, the number of pixels is bang on, the EVF is my #1 priority and it has that, colour science is good too.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Mr.Prime

[Kim Dahl]

I have tried both and SL2s (and SL2) it is too big a camera and only gives about 10MB pictures for 35000 dkr.  (4700 €)!  SL2 provides 22 MB images for 45000 dkr (6000 €) !!  and both cameras are much larger than the CL.  There is in my opinion no comparison.  I wish there was a CL2 but I unfortunately do not think so anymore.  I hope leica changes its mind and makes something useful alternative to CL.

[idusidusi]

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On 2/22/2022 at 10:42 AM, nicci78 said:

What do you mean ? a final CL2 is still possible ? or CL is the last one ?

May be Leica has stopped its former strategy : being the 3:2 aspect ratio company : from 1 inch, cropped m4/3, APS-C, Full frame (24x36) to ProFormat (30x45) 

Leica may go back to its original format only, the one they invented : 24x36. If they can make a cheaper and smaller kind of QL instead of CL, it could be ok.

TL lenses will always work on any current and future L-mount cameras. So no worry about their future

Well yes providing the L-Mount continues, and TL lenses will work, so no issue  there, like with R lenses still of use. The camera is for me the least important part, especially since the advent of digital and the continual race for more megapixels... the lenses are the important part, hence all the adapters one can buy.

[idusidusi]

On 3/1/2022 at 12:54 AM, tritentrue said:

Regarding cell phones affecting the APS-C market:  Mr. Yamaki (Sigma CEO) made the point a while back that post-digital bubble, yearly sales of digital cameras is comparable to what film camera sales were prior to the digital bubble.  That seems to infer that cell phones cut into the bubble, but not into the traditional photography market.

I hate cell phone and especially photography with the damn things. I do admit there are certain times (like copying a page of a  document) when they are handy. However a camera even 4/3 is far more capable than a phone - but that is just my opinion.

[Mr.Prime]

14 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

I have tried both and SL2s (and SL2) it is too big a camera and only gives about 10MB pictures for 35000 dkr.  (4700 €)!  SL2 provides 22 MB images for 45000 dkr (6000 €) !!  and both cameras are much larger than the CL.  There is in my opinion no comparison.  I wish there was a CL2 but I unfortunately do not think so anymore.  I hope leica changes its mind and makes something useful alternative to CL.

I’m starting to look more closely at the Fuji X-T4, on paper it looks very good although it too is still larger and heavier than the CL it may be a worthy compromise.

[aksclix]

48 minutes ago, Mr.Prime said:

I’m starting to look more closely at the Fuji X-T4, on paper it looks very good although it too is still larger and heavier than the CL it may be a worthy compromise.

Canon M6 Mark II?

Sony a6600?

😌

[Mr.Prime]

2 hours ago, aksclix said:

Canon M6 Mark II?

Sony a6600?

😌

Neither have dedicated control knobs for shutter speed snd their EVFs are not as good. I think Panasonic have a more appealing product for me in the T4. The sigma fp has a high resolution optional EVF but still no manual control knobs.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Mr.Prime

[idusidusi]

5 hours ago, Mr.Prime said:

Neither have dedicated control knobs for shutter speed snd their EVFs are not as good. I think Panasonic have a more appealing product for me in the T4. The sigma fp has a high resolution optional EVF but still no manual control knobs.

T4 felt very light to me, very plasticky and I did not like it so did not buy.

[Boojay]

10 hours ago, aksclix said:

Canon M6 Mark II?

Sony a6600?

😌

So many options out there, non bad, just depends on your needs.

I've been looking at non Leica options closely in the last couple of weeks.  I find the CL just about perfect, but my Daughter who has asked for a camera for her birthday, on the couple of occasions when I have handed her the CL has found it confusing and frustrating to use.  Whereas I love its simple form factor and lack of knobs/dials with labels, for someone who probably wants to leave the camera in P or full auto mode, and stick with jpegs, it's not the tool.  

She more often than not uses her phone, has a great eye for the shot but no wish to get too into photography, when I talk to her about aperture/iso/shutter speed, she just glazes over😊, in truth with three small kids, a very busy business to run which generally finds her still answering e-mails in the middle of the night it's probably more of a time issue than anything else.

Anyway that's the background, having borrowed my Canon 650D about eight years ago, it never having left P mode, the 18-55 kit lens probably by now welded to the mount as its never been removed, it's pretty much worn out, so replacement time, and I think time for step into mirrorless world.  

Canon might have made sense, as I still have lenses that could be adapted to EF-M, but like the CL situation it seems that EOS-M is finished for Canon. I did look at 4/3rds, Panasonic, Olympus but knowing nothing of them myself steered away from that route.  I think Fuji jpegs and film simulations will appeal, then how to decide on a body, she likes the form factor of the XT rather than XE type (my preference) said she likes the hump😉 and then asked me what it was for.   She is used to PASM, Fuji offer that now with the XS-10, it has IBIS and shares much of the XT-4's internals, controls seems simple enough, lots of touchscreen options.  So, decision made. I went with the kit 18-55 lens that I know to be very capable and will be a good first (could be only) lens for her, though I am sorely tempted to get a 35mm 1.4, my favourite favourite (did I say favourite) Fuji lens.

It's probably too much of a camera for her, but I'll enjoy the odd play.   

 

[aksclix]

3 hours ago, Boojay said:

So many options out there, non bad, just depends on your needs.

I've been looking at non Leica options closely in the last couple of weeks.  I find the CL just about perfect, but my Daughter who has asked for a camera for her birthday, on the couple of occasions when I have handed her the CL has found it confusing and frustrating to use.  Whereas I love its simple form factor and lack of knobs/dials with labels, for someone who probably wants to leave the camera in P or full auto mode, and stick with jpegs, it's not the tool.  

She more often than not uses her phone, has a great eye for the shot but no wish to get too into photography, when I talk to her about aperture/iso/shutter speed, she just glazes over😊, in truth with three small kids, a very busy business to run which generally finds her still answering e-mails in the middle of the night it's probably more of a time issue than anything else.

Anyway that's the background, having borrowed my Canon 650D about eight years ago, it never having left P mode, the 18-55 kit lens probably by now welded to the mount as its never been removed, it's pretty much worn out, so replacement time, and I think time for step into mirrorless world.  

Canon might have made sense, as I still have lenses that could be adapted to EF-M, but like the CL situation it seems that EOS-M is finished for Canon. I did look at 4/3rds, Panasonic, Olympus but knowing nothing of them myself steered away from that route.  I think Fuji jpegs and film simulations will appeal, then how to decide on a body, she likes the form factor of the XT rather than XE type (my preference) said she likes the hump😉 and then asked me what it was for.   She is used to PASM, Fuji offer that now with the XS-10, it has IBIS and shares much of the XT-4's internals, controls seems simple enough, lots of touchscreen options.  So, decision made. I went with the kit 18-55 lens that I know to be very capable and will be a good first (could be only) lens for her, though I am sorely tempted to get a 35mm 1.4, my favourite favourite (did I say favourite) Fuji lens.

It's probably too much of a camera for her, but I'll enjoy the odd play.   

 

I love Fuji! I had their XT and XT2. Now just the 100s. I believe the XS-10 looks similar to a mini 100s? However, they’re still bigger than the CL.. that is why I had suggested Canon M6 Mark II but yea, that line is kinda dead too and their lens choices are quite minimal. I have used that as well briefly and it was TOO compact for my palms. The detachable EVF wasn’t too bad although nothing comes close to CL’s awesome EVF. I have the Sony a6600 and I like it very much. Very compact, best in class AF.. the menus can be annoying though. 

[Louis]

What I like with Leica cameras is their “non-plastic” bodies without those knobs and buttons. CL size, simplicity and feel was perfect for my need. I don’t have the same “feel” with other cameras although I find the Fujis quite attractive. If only  there was a solution for using L lenses on them! 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Louis

[oldwino]

I’ve been playing with the Nikon Zfc and its 16-50 kit lens. The camera, while not made of plastic, sort of feels like it is because it is very light. But after having the camera over a shoulder or around my neck for a few minutes, you forget about that and enjoy the light weight. It has all the required “retro” knobs to satisfy an old(er) film camera user like me. JPGs are pretty good, and the RAW files easy to edit  

The kit lens is rather “slow”, aperture-wise, but also very sharp, with a nice rendering quality. It also has built in vibration reduction (VR), which is helpful. There are a few third-party autofocus lenses now available which are faster, but lack the VR. I see that Voigtlander will produce some manual focus lenses for the Z mount now. 

I can also use some of my M lenses on it, with an adaptor, as the EVF is nice enough to allow manual focusing. The current Voigtlander 40/1.2 is very nice on this camera. 

What seems on the face of it to be a kitschy retro-camera turns out to be quite a nice image making device. 

[ynp]

I was able to borrow from a friend and use the Canon RP with the 35 and 85 Macro IS lenses. Loved the AF and the general user experience, but the sensor is obviously dated. 
We are still looking for a clean second hand CL as a backup. 

[Boojay]

57 minutes ago, aksclix said:

I love Fuji! I had their XT and XT2. Now just the 100s. I believe the XS-10 looks similar to a mini 100s? However, they’re still bigger than the CL.. that is why I had suggested Canon M6 Mark II but yea, that line is kinda dead too and their lens choices are quite minimal. I have used that as well briefly and it was TOO compact for my palms. The detachable EVF wasn’t too bad although nothing comes close to CL’s awesome EVF. I have the Sony a6600 and I like it very much. Very compact, best in class AF.. the menus can be annoying though. 

I wouldn't describe it as a mini 100s - far more like the XT line with less bells and whistles, and much smaller, not really bigger than the CL.  I had wondered how I would feel about the size, sometimes it's hard to visualise simply from specs, and my daughter had specifically asked for a smallish body.  The package arrived around an hour ago and I had to have a look inside, I will be charging batteries, formatting sd cards and having it ready for action anyway.  So, first impressions are pretty good, feels fairly solid, I like the grip, and the flippy screen.  Apparently Fuji had to re-design the IBIS system to fit in the body, 6 stops equivalent, and the deeper grip is to accommodate the battery and sd card.   Anyway, here is the size comparison image for anyone interested.  I often use the CL with half case and grip, in that form it's actually bigger than the little Fuji, and even bare the fuji is just slightly narrower only larger in the grip and the hump!  

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Apologies if I offend anyone by posting pictures of the competition, but given Leica's current position on future aps-c I think some are looking for alternatives and it may be useful info.

For myself I am more than happy with the CL for the foreseeable future, glad I bought a second given that latest information on my original that's in for repair (sent it in nearly five weeks ago), is that it will be a minimum of another eight weeks.

 

 

 

 

[Louis]

Jayne, thank you very much for your interesting post and the photos! I believe this is what this thread is about since seemingly, Leica is not continuing with APSC and some of us have to find an alternative.

I am also very happy with my CL and will use it till it keeps working!  

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Rusty]

19 hours ago, aksclix said:

Canon M6 Mark II?

Sony a6600?

😌

You are of course assuming both these lines continue. The Future of the canon m series is already being queried and if the long term future is cellphones and full frame then who is to say there is any future in apsc. Best thing is to get the best camera that suits your needs NOW and when it no longer serves your needs or stop working then look at your best option. It’s crazy to second guess the future of tech.