Problems getting sharp images by 60MP

[idusidusi]

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3 hours ago, HansiMustermann said:

I use the M11 like any other M before it. I can't understand much of the discussion here. 

Yes agreed, a week into M11 ownership, I am really loving the results I can get.

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[SoarFM]

6 hours ago, aristotle said:

Depth of field isn't affected by sensor resolution.  If you enlarge an image from a 60MP sensor more than you would from a 24 MP sensor, the depth of field will be more compresed.  But that's just a function of how much it was enlarged, not a function of the sensor resolution.  

The acceptable Circle of Confusion (CoC) does matter. If one examines resolution at 100% magnification, how much real estate that 100% magnification occupies, whether in print or on screen and how close your face is to the image makes all the difference. And the resolution of the sensor is a good proxy for how large you can print and absolutely affects the size of the image when pixel peeping at 100% 

Leica lenses, both modern and new are marked with a depth of field scale representing  around .03 mm CoC, a number suited for an 8x10 print held 10 inches away from your face. The truth is that the true acceptable CoC for someone with 20/20 corrected vision is probably 1/3 that number. You are going to be disappointed if you use the zone focusing scales on your lens with a modern full frame digital camera.

What worked for lower resolution sensors (or film) simply does not work for higher resolution sensors, the relative loss of detail relative to the high resolving power of the sensor and lenses is noticeable. And we haven’t even talked about diffraction—which is why stopping the lens down to to f11 or f16 hurts rather than helps.

There is a reason that landscape photographers have been doing focus stacking, and numerous cameras even have an automated focus stacking option available in camera.

 

[lct]

Old topic but we were discussing about a low res pic here, your 4mp file . BTW on basis of such "modern" CoC values most if not all fast leica lenses would be impossible to focus since RF accuracy formulas are based on CoC values as well but it is another story. 

[aristotle]

1 hour ago, SoarFM said:

The acceptable Circle of Confusion (CoC) does matter. If one examines resolution at 100% magnification, how much real estate that 100% magnification occupies, whether in print or on screen and how close your face is to the image makes all the difference. And the resolution of the sensor is a good proxy for how large you can print and absolutely affects the size of the image when pixel peeping at 100% 

Leica lenses, both modern and new are marked with a depth of field scale representing  around .03 mm CoC, a number suited for an 8x10 print held 10 inches away from your face. The truth is that the true acceptable CoC for someone with 20/20 corrected vision is probably 1/3 that number. You are going to be disappointed if you use the zone focusing scales on your lens with a modern full frame digital camera.

What worked for lower resolution sensors (or film) simply does not work for higher resolution sensors, the relative loss of detail relative to the high resolving power of the sensor and lenses is noticeable. And we haven’t even talked about diffraction—which is why stopping the lens down to to f11 or f16 hurts rather than helps.

There is a reason that landscape photographers have been doing focus stacking, and numerous cameras even have an automated focus stacking option available in camera.

 

I think that we are saying the same thing.  Sure, if you are taking advantage of the extra resolution by enlarging more than you would with some lower resolution sensor, OK.  Many reading these posts though seem to conclude though that it's the actual resolution that is "causing a problem".  It's what you are deciding to do with the sensor output that requires additional care.  I would agree that for landscape photographs that are meant to be printed very large, and viewed from a close distance, that special care and extra measures are needed.  To me, it's analogous to claiming that cameras with good high-ISO performance prevent you from creating subject motion blur effects.  Well, OK, I guess, if you insist on operating the camera at a high iso setting resulting in a faster shutter speed.  If that's the effect that you are going for, well then you don't want to shoot high iso on a bright day.  Just shoot at a lower ISO setting.  And if you want to blow up a photograph and have viewers look at it close up (or have people look at it at "100%" for whatever reason) then you accept the fact that you either get what you get, or you use some other technique (such as focus stacking, like you mentioned.)  That CoC argument that you made is right on, but holds just as much for a 24MP sensor as it does for a 60MP sensor for an 8x10 print.  

[anickpick]

M11, ISO 12500, Lightroom exp. + 1, so basically ISO 25000. 28 Lux at 1.4, 1/25 sec.  60MP, one shot, sharp enough for my needs.

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[idusidusi]

9 hours ago, anickpick said:

M11, ISO 12500, Lightroom exp. + 1, so basically ISO 25000. 28 Lux at 1.4, 1/25 sec.  60MP, one shot, sharp enough for my needs.

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That really is darn good!

[Wandering Photographer]

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On 4/4/2022 at 8:30 PM, SoarFM said:

This is my unscientific explanation.

As resolution increases, and with exceptional lenses, out of focus areas are more apparent, especially while in pixel peeping mode. This is why landscape photographers are focus stacking. While f 5.6 or f8 with a 35mm or 50mm lens could once be considered to have a significant zone of focus area, with a 60 megapixel image that zone is apparently narrower.

Today I went for a walk with my M11, no tripod. I am not as steady as most of you since a spinal cord injury 13 years ago. In fact I use hiking poles quite often on walks of any distance off paved paths. I took some pictures handheld using 1/4f shutter speeds. They are unmistakably "sharp" in the zone of focus, which is quite narrow even at f5.6 or f8. The idea that an M11 can't be successfully focused handheld is just not so, even in my case, which is that of a sometimes wobbly 62 year old, even while stooped over.

 

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M11 35-APO ~f8.0

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[Ktsa5239]

My M11 arrived yesterday! This whole time I was so so worried about not getting sharp photos reading the comments here but to my surprise, its really about the same as the M10R. I handheld this shot with 35APO and did a 150% crop at 1/125 shutter and it looks plenty sharp for me (If anything, I might have missed focus as it was moving a tiny bit. This is about 1/4f shutter but its also at the min focus distance. I can now do macro on this lens now that I have 60MP to crop! For those who are worried about 60MP I must say if you were ok with the M10R you should have no problems on the M11

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Edited April 9, 2022 by Ktsa5239

[Ktsa5239]

Here is another one with the same settings

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[TrickyMrT]

On 4/9/2022 at 2:51 AM, Ktsa5239 said:

My M11 arrived yesterday! This whole time I was so so worried about not getting sharp photos reading the comments here but to my surprise, its really about the same as the M10R. I handheld this shot with 35APO and did a 150% crop at 1/125 shutter and it looks plenty sharp for me (If anything, I might have missed focus as it was moving a tiny bit. This is about 1/4f shutter but its also at the min focus distance. I can now do macro on this lens now that I have 60MP to crop! For those who are worried about 60MP I must say if you were ok with the M10R you should have no problems on the M11

Question was never about getting sharp images.... it is about the much higher shutter speed needed for the 60MP!

Higher shutter speed means increasing the ISO. 2-3 times higher shutter speed required. For me the amount of sharp images dropped dramatically.

I sold my M11

 

 

[lct]

3 minutes ago, TrickyMrT said:

Question was never about getting sharp images.... it is about the much higher shutter speed needed for the 60MP!

Higher shutter speed means increasing the ISO. 2-3 times higher shutter speed required. For me the amount of sharp images dropped dramatically.

I sold my M11

My fear too since i shoot often at 3200/6400 iso . Hope i will find solutions at 36MP or 18MP failing which the M11 will have to go.

[Photoworks]

I set the camera on AUTO ISO and auto shutter and just set my f-stop, unless I have moving people.

It works so well that I don't even look what iso it is. I have set limit to 12500 ISO.

Out of Towson of images there are one hand fell of images where the noise is a problem.

 

this image is at ISO 3200 with noise and sharpening off in capture one..  1/160's

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this is already dark in 

ISO 1600  f2.8 1/60s

I am satisfied with his results..

[lct]

Thanks for sharing. Exif say 2000 & 1600 iso which should not be a problem for me hopefully. 6400iso at 1/f will be my first test when i receive the M11. Touch wood...

[Ktsa5239]

11 hours ago, TrickyMrT said:

Question was never about getting sharp images.... it is about the much higher shutter speed needed for the 60MP!

Higher shutter speed means increasing the ISO. 2-3 times higher shutter speed required. For me the amount of sharp images dropped dramatically.

I sold my M11

 

 

In that case, I guess the M10R wouldnt work for you either. Comparing to the M10 I just need 2 stops faster shutter speed, I dont know if that qualifies as "much higher". But I guess if it doesnt work for you, theres no point in keeping it. 

[Tailwagger]

On Friday, I hit a couple of hundred golf balls for the first time in at least a half a dozen years. Thus, the next day while out shooting, I was sore as hell when I happened across an interesting road side scene,  I parked about a half mile up and started to walk back.  On the way there, while crossing from a field onto the road, I managed to catch my foot on a root and went straight down tumbling onto the pavement, banging my knee and scraping both my palms drawing blood. Camera unharmed, but I was a little shaken, as had there been a car coming I certainly would have been run over. After wiping off the blood, having already paid the price for this one, I refused to turn around and continued walking to the destination. Given the nature of the scene and the presence of the falls, I attempted a version at lower shutter speed to avoid overly crispy water.  

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Now I documented all the stupidity around this particular shot to point out that if a tired, sore, freshly banged up 67 year old man can get handheld results this sharp at below 1/F and you can't at 1/2F, no offense, but look in the mirror. You're the problem, not the camera.  Buy a grip, work on technique, get a tripod or buy an SL with IBIS, but don't expect Leica build an M to address your own personal limitations. 

 

[HansiMustermann]

You can use 60 MP with Visoflex III and a very old Elmar 65, handheld, and get sharp pictures. If not, don‘t use a rangefinder, doesn‘t matter which one. 
 

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[vikasmg]

On 2/16/2022 at 6:56 PM, TrickyMrT said:

Hi,
Who else has also had issues getting sharp images handheld @ 60MP? 
I'm only to get sharp images at a Shutterspeed of 1/250!

So is 60MP too much for an M system. With my M10 24MP, i can shoot by much lower Shutterspeed 1/30 and get sharp images.

I also tried to reduce it to 18MP, but no difference. 

Is anyone here with the same experience?

 

 

 

 

I'm late to this thread so I'm not sure if this has been said.  I do have some unship image problems buy only if I look at the images at close to 1:1 size enlarged on the screen.  While that's not ideal, I guess it's not surprising at lower shutter speeds and in reality no one will really experience it visually unless doing really serious cropping on the original image.

[hdmesa]

On 3/31/2022 at 2:57 PM, nicci78 said:

OIS set on Auto = active at 1/30th and slower. Disable at 1/60th and faster. 
If Q2 is set with OIS ON, its OIS can make blurry images at fast shutter speed. 
It is a flaw since original Q. Not corrected in Q2. Leica is well aware of it. Hence the auto setting in Q and Q2. 
 

On 3/31/2022 at 3:03 PM, SrMi said:

I have not seen or heard that Q2's OIS causes blurry images at fast shutter speeds. AFAIR, Leica said that the IQ of corners may suffer when OIS is on, therefore they want to turn it on only when needed.

On 3/31/2022 at 3:09 PM, nicci78 said:

I’ve got a Q since its launch. Then a Q2. More than 90K photos with them. I can assure you that if you did not disable OIS at higher than 1/60th, OIS can blurred occasionally your image with Q and Q2. 
That’s why Leica introduced its Auto OIS settings.

I used to see the same thing on my original Q bodies, but on my Q2 Reporter, every single handheld shot is sharper (corners included) with OIS on, so I leave it on full-time. I've never seen a single shot on my Q2 at higher shutter speeds be blurred by the OIS like I did on my original Q. It may be that my specific type of camera shake is better helped by the Q2 OIS than it is for others. Or although unlikely, maybe there was a stealth hardware improvement made to the most recent Q2 bodies. Even something as a simple as a change in assembly procedure can lead to improvements.

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[Erato]

3 hours ago, M10RUser said:

What a great shot!

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Thank you so much for your kind words.🌿

50mm f/0.95 ASPH Noctilux-M, M11

[Ktsa5239]

Trying to push the limit, I’m getting good results at 1/60 with the 35mm APO. So excited!

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