Problems getting sharp images by 60MP

[aristotle]

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2 minutes ago, aristotle said:

SrMi posted a link to a Leica Tech Talk video in another thread where a Leica developer said unambiguously something to the effect that "there is no magic to the lower resolution...you get the same result if you start with the high resolution DNG and lower the resolution yourself."  I was surprised, but there wasn't a bunch of room for interpretation.  Maybe SrMi can find that?

Found it.  Starting at 43:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIE-GQjiqYA

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Because Leica stated that it was pixel binning. That's why. They're touting their new way of doing it.

I thought it was interpolation as well until someone actually found Leicas statement and posted it for me.

Gordon

p.s. does anyone know whether Canon's mRAW and sRAW are binned or downsampled.

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I think it is a mistake, as pixel binning is not possible for those resolutions.

In one of German Leica presentations, the term Dual Pixel Gain was used. That is also incorrect.

[Photoworks]

7 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Dual Pixel Gain was used.

I think they have talked about a dual gain in the M11.

64 ISO and 200 ISO

[SrMi]

9 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

I think they have talked about a dual gain in the M11.

64 ISO and 200 ISO

Dual gain or dual conversion gain is correct. However, Dual Pixel is an AF technology. So, Dual Pixel Gain does not make sense.

Edited February 22, 2022 by SrMi

[IkarusJohn]

Leica used the term "pixel binning" in its marketing material.  I think it's just convenient shorthand for some in camera processing of the image akin to what you can do in LightRoom.

[Erato]

I don't care about shaking, blur, or binning but I do care about oversampling, line skipping, dead spots, etc.

[Chatsphotog]

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No problem here. Cropped image is 3.11% off total available pixels. Leica M11 mit Leica APO-SUMMICRON-M 1:2/35mm ASPH. 

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

6 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Great summary, Gordon.

I doubt Leica would release a camera with shutter shock. That said, with live view as standard (I’m using shorthand for the shutter opening when the camera is turned on), a lot more is happening than in traditional mechanical shutter mode - shutter open->close->open->close->open - for a single exposure. That said, the same happens with other cameras without issue (the X1D springs to mind).

What interests me more is the impact of increased MP. I don’t need it, but I don’t mind it, if there is no cost.

Take a comparison of pixel pitch of the cameras I’ve used (there is a flaw in the comparison in that there will be a difference in the efficiency of coverage of the pixel sites on the sensor surface area):

• 18 MP M9 (Monochrom) - 6.9 microns
• 24 MP M10-D - 6.0 microns
• 50 MP X1D - 5.3 microns
• 24 MP TL2 (APS-C) - 3.9 microns

I don’t have an M11, but at 60MP, it’s pixel pitch is 3.76 microns.  I haven’t included the Nikon D800E as the issue there was shutter shock.

Surprisingly, motion blur isn’t an apparent problem with the TL2, though I do take care.  My conclusion is that shutter shock hopefully isn’t a problem, and that there are diminishing returns with increased MP for a given sensor size.  The 35mm format is ideal for handheld photography, and anything which detracts from that is not a positive development.  Similarly, medium format would not be my first choice for most handheld photography.  The X1D II was the exception to this - it’s wonderful body form and fabulous sensor made it a great camera for most photography.  My only reservations were the unavoidable lens size and weight (for given focal length and speed), and heat management.  If I walked around with the camera turned on, and AF on, the camera quite quickly cooked up.

So, I see no benefit in high MP on its own.  The M is a compact, stripped back to the essentials camera of the highest quality primarily for handheld use.  If the sensor gives better IQ and dynamic range, then that’s great.  I suspect Leica could have achieved that without the potential complications of 60MP and permanent live view - I see these as negatives, with no positive gain from what I already have.

Let’s see what comes next.  100MP?  Don’t really care one way or the other.  IBIS?  Not particularly interested, provided it is effectively invisible.  Neither of these are virtues in themselves.

 

GFX pixel pitch is the same as the M11, as is the A7RIV. BSI helps quite a bit with per pixel performance.

The X1D is supposed to get warm. The body is the heat sink for the sensor and processor. It was by design.

There is no deficit to using the M11 lower resolutions. None. So if you don't need the resolution (I do) then they are available. People have a very strong reaction to them, for no good reason. I don't think there's anyone with an M11 saying there's a downside to the lower resolutions other than pixel count. So many non-owners having a whinge about a non issue. If you want a 18MP camera then shoot the M11 at 18MP. I do all the time. If the camera ONLY did 60MP I might understand. But it doesn't so whinging about 60MP is stupid.

Gordon

p.s. Not really directed at you. More a general comment. Convenient to quote re the X1D and just waffle on from there.

Edited February 22, 2022 by FlashGordonPhotography

[IkarusJohn]

Useful.  I don’t need what the M11 has to offer - just interested in the development.

Sold my X1D II, and the 4 lenses.  It was a great system, but I really saw no need to have more than what I have with the M system - I would have sold my SL as well, but it is a user, and I like to have access to telephotos when I need them.  I have the SL, with 24-90 zoom, Elmarit-R 180 & 2x converter.  With the adapter, I also have the use of my M lenses.

The X1D II was a luxury I couldn’t justify.  That said, the files from the 50c sensor were fantastic.  If anything would tempt me into another camera, it would be a larger sensor.  There’s no substitute for surface area …

[digitalfx]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

I think it is a mistake, as pixel binning is not possible for those resolutions.

In one of German Leica presentations, the term Dual Pixel Gain was used. That is also incorrect.

Highly unlikely...it also appeared in a graphic in the same presentation. That would be a huge mistake.

I had the same immediate reaction when I first heard that they were using pixel binning. In the video world pixel binning is generally known to create inferior results.

RE: Resolution... pixel binning isnt limited to 4:1.

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

Dual gain or dual conversion gain is correct. However, Dual Pixel is an AF technology. So, Dual Pixel Gain does not make sense.

"Dual Pixel Gain" is also mentioned on the website specs for the M11. Dual pixel gain is when the signal is read out twice at different gains to increase dynamic range...same concept used for dual pixel autofocus, but for a different application.

[LocalHero1953]

3 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

There is no deficit to using the M11 lower resolutions. None. So if you don't need the resolution (I do) then they are available. People have a very strong reaction to them, for no good reason. I don't think there's anyone with an M11 saying there's a downside to the lower resolutions other than pixel count. So many non-owners having a whinge about a non issue. If you want a 18MP camera then shoot the M11 at 18MP. I do all the time. If the camera ONLY did 60MP I might understand. But it doesn't so whinging about 60MP is stupid.

Gordon

p.s. Not really directed at you. More a general comment. Convenient to quote re the X1D and just waffle on from there.

A bit OTT.

A couple of years ago, the M was the embodiment of Das Wesentliche. Now it has multiple resolutions, multiple image sizes, multiple shutter movements and multiple exposure methods. It's hardly surprising it raises questions. Questioning such issues before you buy a £7,500 camera is not whingeing, it's common sense.

 

Edit. FWIW I find this thread helpful, if a bit tetchy at times. My only M now is a M4, but as a CL owner I might be looking for an alternative small light, simple, high quality camera at some stage. A future derivation of the M11 is an option.

Edited February 22, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Datsch]

6 hours ago, Chatsphotog said:

No problem here. Cropped image is 3.11% off total available pixels. Leica M11 mit Leica APO-SUMMICRON-M 1:2/35mm ASPH. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

So you can basically crop down on a 35 to the size of the rangefinder patch? That is impressive.

I'm happy on my M-D (M240) shooting a 50mm expecting to crop down to the 75mm framelines, but this is on a whole other level. The 35 APO would do the job of a 50 and 75 and 90 as well, if you don't need a vast amount of background blur ...

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Datsch

[FlashGordonPhotography]

27 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

A bit OTT.

A couple of years ago, the M was the embodiment of Das Wesentliche. Now it has multiple resolutions, multiple image sizes, multiple shutter movements and multiple exposure methods. It's hardly surprising it raises questions. Questioning such issues before you buy a £7,500 camera is not whingeing, it's common sense.

 

Edit. FWIW I find this thread helpful, if a bit tetchy at times. My only M now is a M4, but as a CL owner I might be looking for an alternative small light, simple, high quality camera at some stage. A future derivation of the M11 is an option.

A couple of years ago the M had video......

and multiple exposure methods.

Gordon

[LocalHero1953]

23 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

A couple of years ago the M had video......

and multiple exposure methods.

Gordon

True, ref video. But angst over exposure methods is because the default method that M owners have been used to since the M6 is no longer an option in its original form. Again, it is not unreasonable to question whether this an improvement*.

 

* Exposure by LV is not a worry for me. It does puzzle me though, why the M11 shutter does not behave like the CL and SL and stay open, thereby avoiding the need to open at startup. Why does the M11 have to be different? More questions.....or whingeing.

Edited February 22, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Fedro]

HI Paul, agree it is not unreasonable to discuss though I  think that if someone does not like the M11 they should simply vote with their wallets (like you and others do).

I like the M11, it is not perfect, but it adds features that I personally find useful (battery, better long exposures), some other things that i dont like (tripod mount) and others I am agnostic to (base plate). All in all I think it is a step forward; if I did not, I would have kept my M10.

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Fedro

[LocalHero1953]

12 minutes ago, Fedro said:

HI Paul, agree it is not unreasonable to discuss though I  think that if someone does not like the M11 they should simply vote with their wallets (like you and others do).

I like the M11, it is not perfect, but it adds features that I personally find useful (battery, better long exposures), some other things that i dont like (tripod mount) and others I am agnostic to (base plate). All in all I think it is a step forward; if I did not, I would have kept my M10.

 

In other circumstances I could like the M11. Some years ago my only camera was the M240, but my photographic needs were met by two separate solutions that the M could not offer: CL (small, silent shutter for concerts, recitals etc) and SL (fast AF, histogram, WYSIWYG viewfinder, video). Some evolution of the M series in the future might allow me to consolidate back to one camera for both needs. The M11 is not it, but I'm following it's development and interested in how it performs. I don't think I'm obliged to do that silently from the sidelines.

[Fedro]

11 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

In other circumstances I could like the M11. Some years ago my only camera was the M240, but my photographic needs were met by two separate solutions that the M could not offer: CL (small, silent shutter for concerts, recitals etc) and SL (fast AF, histogram, WYSIWYG viewfinder, video). Some evolution of the M series in the future might allow me to consolidate back to one camera for both needs. The M11 is not it, but I'm following it's development and interested in how it performs. I don't think I'm obliged to do that silently from the sidelines.

no, definitely not, we are all here to discuss and debate. Me I had 3 systems, M, SL and X1D. Much as I miss the SL, in the end it had to go. I do primarily landscape and street and he X1D is just superior for the former and the M for the latter. It maddens me with the M11 to see that they take a step in the right direction (better long exposure, switchable LENR) but at the same time go in the opposite direction (tripod mount) but then again ..

[pgk]

35 minutes ago, Fedro said:

..... I  think that if someone does not like the M11 they should simply vote with their wallets (like you and others do).

If the M11 doesn't sell well and there is no criticism of its shortcomings, how are Leica to know where they went wrong. They are either supplying to a changing market or attempting to update something which didn't need updating, and in doing so are alienating some of their traditional customers such as myself - I will not be buying an M11 because to me it is primarily a compromised EVF camera wth excessive Pixels with a rangefinder fitted. This is a long way from the traditional M.

[Fedro]

14 minutes ago, pgk said:

If the M11 doesn't sell well and there is no criticism of its shortcomings, how are Leica to know where they went wrong. They are either supplying to a changing market or attempting to update something which didn't need updating, and in doing so are alienating some of their traditional customers such as myself - I will not be buying an M11 because to me it is primarily a compromised EVF camera wth excessive Pixels with a rangefinder fitted. This is a long way from the traditional M.

If the M11 does not sell well, they will do a post-mortem like all companies do. Perhaps 1 month in is a little early to do that. They update cameras when they feel they have to or simply want to, and this is entirely their right. If you dont need an upgrade you are right not to buy it.

We all dont need an upgrade until ... we do. I see countless MacBook pros go by without feeling the need. Upgrades are becoming more and more frequent and almost always not paradigm shifts. There may be people who have an M8  who feel that the M11 has tipped them towards needing to upgrade, it is very personal indeed. Is it a departure from a traditional M, of course it is, but then again what is a traditional M and didn't they do that already when they added TTL or a sensor?

Edited February 22, 2022 by Fedro

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[pgk]

41 minutes ago, Fedro said:

If the M11 does not sell well, they will do a post-mortem like all companies do. Perhaps 1 month in is a little early to do that. They update cameras when they feel they have to or simply want to, and this is entirely their right. If you dont need an upgrade you are right not to buy it.

We all dont need an upgrade until ... we do. I see countless MacBook pros go by without feeling the need. Upgrades are becoming more and more frequent and almost always not paradigm shifts. There may be people who have an M8  who feel that the M11 has tipped them towards needing to upgrade, it is very personal indeed. Is it a departure from a traditional M, of course it is, but then again what is a traditional M and didn't they do that already when they added TTL or a sensor?

Indeed. But regarding your last point. There is currently no digital equivalent of a 'simple' film camera - Leica M6, Nikon FM, Pentax K1000, etc.. Many will argue that there doesn't need to be but, for I one, will argue that simplicity is currently in short supply. The M11 is a good example of technical bloat, most of which is quite unnecessary for taking 'good' photographs.