Problems getting sharp images by 60MP

[idusidusi]

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3 hours ago, idusidusi said:

Forgot to add that I could also focus with the rangefinder better than with a M10,  using the SUPERIMPOSED IMAGE METHOD, which surprised and pleased me.

 

 

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[peterinkingston]

On 2/17/2022 at 11:23 AM, wizard said:

There is no question that IF you want to take advantage of the full potential of any 60MP camera, either by making very large prints or by cropping, you will have to refine your technique. Which means trying to hold your camera as steady as you can, possibly with the help of pressing it against a non-moving object etc., using high shutter speeds wherever possible, and so on. Obviously, IBIS will help in achieving better results as far as user induced motion blur is concerned, as everyone who has ever used IBIS will certainly know.

Whether that means that Leica will introduce IBIS into their M line of cameras remains to be seen. As of now, IBIS would mean a thicker body, which many users do not like (as evidenced by Leica finally returning to the original M body thickness with the M10). If it is possible to integrate IBIS into an M body without any increase in body thickness, then I am sure Leica will do just that. Else, I am less convinced, as there are other alternatives for users requiring or simply desiring IBIS, and body thickness has proven to be a significant factor with M Leicas.

Sorry to state the obvious but, why can Leica or other lens manufacturers make IBIS in the lens.

OR why can't someone like Metabiones the adapter company make an IBIs mount that lets us use our existing M lenses and M cameras.

OR why can't someone make a base for the M11 that does IBIS. It would be thin enough to fit in a couple of millimeters.

I cannot believe clever engneers cannot solve this problem.

If I were younger in my day I know I could do it. (HAHAHAHAH)

[Tailwagger]

20 minutes ago, peterinkingston said:

Sorry to state the obvious but, why can Leica or other lens manufacturers make IBIS in the lens.

OR why can't someone like Metabiones the adapter company make an IBIs mount that lets us use our existing M lenses and M cameras.

Apparently one man's obvious is another's blind spot. 

1. IBIS stands for In Body Image Stabilization.  All of your notions are OIS, not IBIS.
2. How exactly, given the M mount provides no electrical connection, do you expect to power the OIS? External battery? Run a cable from the hotshoe? Seriously?!?!
3. Any adapter added to the mount adds to the registration distance. Might work (with added lensing and some form of external power) with tele-focal designs, no wides would work. 

If its that big a deal to you, buy a top end steady cam and trigger via fotos. Problem solved. 

[wizard]

vor 35 Minuten schrieb peterinkingston:

Sorry to state the obvious

Because it isn't obvious 🙂.

vor 35 Minuten schrieb peterinkingston:

why can Leica or other lens manufacturers make IBIS in the lens.

Because IBIS means In Body Image Stabilization, so it won't be in the lens. But I understand your question anyway. However, including image stabilization into M lenses would mean the end of all current M lenses. Current M lenses are fully mechanical, with no electronic components of any sort. Image stabilized M lenses would have to be larger, and would require some sort of communication between the camera body and each lens, which so far does not exist either (the M lens code is not enough I presume).

vor 35 Minuten schrieb peterinkingston:

why can't someone like Metabiones the adapter company make an IBIs mount that lets us use our existing M lenses

Because any adapter increases the flange distance of the lens from the camera's sensor, which means it is impossible with M lenses. It would be possible if you want to use M lenses with other cameras that have a shorter flange to lens distance, but that is a different question.

vor 35 Minuten schrieb peterinkingston:

why can't someone make a base for the M11 that does IBIS. It would be thin enough to fit in a couple of millimeters.

I am sure Leica have thought of this solution, but it seems they wanted to avoid bloating the M body by a "couple of millimeters".

Cheers,

Andy

Edit: Tailwagger beat me to it 😁

Edited February 28, 2022 by wizard

[peterinkingston]

12 minutes ago, wizard said:

Because it isn't obvious 🙂.

Because IBIS means In Body Image Stabilization, so it won't be in the lens. But I understand your question anyway. However, including image stabilization into M lenses would mean the end of all current M lenses. Current M lenses are fully mechanical, with no electronic components of any sort. Image stabilized M lenses would have to be larger, and would require some sort of communication between the camera body and each lens, which so far does not exist either (the M lens code is not enough I presume).

Because any adapter increases the flange distance of the lens from the camera's sensor, which means it is impossible with M lenses. It would be possible if you want to use M lenses with other cameras that have a shorter flange to lens distance, but that is a different question.

I am sure Leica have thought of this solution, but it seems they wanted to avoid bloating the M body by a "couple of millimeters".

Cheers,

Andy

Edit: Tailwagger beat me to it 😁

Thanks chaps, I'm just dreaming.

[lct]

21 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Any adapter added to the mount adds to the registration distance. Might work (with added lensing and some form of external power) with tele-focal designs, no wides would work. 

Are you sure? AF adapters work as is with M lenses on Sony cameras. Why not an IBIS adapter the same size on an (admittedly) modified RF-M body? Theoritical question though i guess. Better make an EVF-M camera with built-in IBIS but perspective of such a beast seems to move away if the M11 proves to be a sucess.

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[Tailwagger]

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10 minutes ago, lct said:

Are you sure? AF adapters work as is with M lenses on Sony cameras. Why not an IBIS adapter the same size on an (admittedly) modified RF-M body? Theoritical question though i guess. Better make an EVF-M camera with built-in IBIS but perspective of such a beast seems to move away if the M11 proves to be a sucess.

Relatively sure.  The Sony E-mount registration distance is 18mm, the M mount is 27.9mm.  The Sony has ~10mm to play with so you can (and have to) add in a spacer, the Leica, obviously, has 0. 

[peterinkingston]

34 minutes ago, peterinkingston said:

Thanks chaps, I'm just dreaming.

Just another crazy thought.  Lots of us use half camera cases. These are not small and add a few mm to the camera but people use them. 

Maybe, you could build a stabilisation system into a camera case?  

[wizard]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb peterinkingston:

Maybe, you could build a stabilisation system into a camera case?

That sounds like a whole lot of more dreaming to me 😉.

[orcinus]

In addition to everything mentioned, you can’t build an OIS into an adapter, as the floating OIS element needs to be at or near the optical center of the lens, and needs to be tuned for the specific focal length. If you meant just having the adapter shift the whole lens around… well, just think about the mass, inertia, required power, resonances involved…

As an aside - after playing with my newly arrived M11 at home (a string of days with bad weather ever since it got here) i must admit don’t get where this idea that it’s somehow impossible to take sharp handheld images with it comes from. 1/2f does the trick just fine. You can do 1/1.5f too with a steady hand.

What i did notice is that it’s much harder to get critically sharp focus now using the RF - maybe some people are finding out that either their RF focusing technique has limitations (which is perfectly normal), or that the accuracy of RF focusing in general is not very suitable for nailing focus at medium to closer distances at 60 megapixels (which is, again, perfectly normal).

Edited February 28, 2022 by orcinus

[peterinkingston]

1 minute ago, orcinus said:

In addition to everything mentioned, you can’t build an OIS into an adapter, as the floating OIS element needs to be at or near the optical center of the lens, and needs to be tuned for the specific focal length. If you meant just having the adapter shift the whole lens around… well, just think about the mass, inertia, required power, resonances involved…

Okay okay, I get it,  let me dream  

 I guess I'm still nervous. I have an M11 on order but my head is telling me I should buy the m10-R becasue of a number of reviews I have seen. Many are pro the M10-R but others like Thorsten Overgaard and Oyez where they hum and say great camera but you know what I just dont think it is as good as the m10-R. 

Bug fixes aside, things like the wild double, triple click of the shutter, the start up times, the impact of the camera shake etc.  I love the idea that the battery lasts for ever, the in built memory and the even the USB charger.

But... i'm just not convinced yet. I feel like I want to love the new M11 and run off into the sunset with it but I just don't know if it is the one for me.    

I have two to three weeks to decide.

 

 

 

[orcinus]

Startup times are longer than i’d want them to be.

Everything else, except the bugs, is rationally irrelevant stuff people convince themselves, or others, is relevant in order to form a strong opinion.
Strong opinions matter in today’s world, because strong opinions sell (views, reads, ads).

M11 costs as much as M10R, does it not?
Create a table of pros and cons of each and make a decision based off of that.
But claiming 60 MP is a downgrade is just silly - you can always get less MP out of 60, but you can’t get 60 out of 24, can you?
And, again, the price remains the same.

Edited February 28, 2022 by orcinus

[shirubadanieru]

11 minutes ago, peterinkingston said:

Okay okay, I get it,  let me dream  

 I guess I'm still nervous. I have an M11 on order but my head is telling me I should buy the m10-R becasue of a number of reviews I have seen. Many are pro the M10-R but others like Thorsten Overgaard and Oyez where they hum and say great camera but you know what I just dont think it is as good as the m10-R. 

Bug fixes aside, things like the wild double, triple click of the shutter, the start up times, the impact of the camera shake etc.  I love the idea that the battery lasts for ever, the in built memory and the even the USB charger.

But... i'm just not convinced yet. I feel like I want to love the new M11 and run off into the sunset with it but I just don't know if it is the one for me.    

I have two to three weeks to decide.

 

 

 

I had the M10M, which has 40 something MP like the M10-R, and to be honest the camera shake there was as noticeable as it is on the M11. That was the first time I noticed that in a Leica camera by the way, so if you really want to move away from that concern, your best bet is to shoot with an M9 or M10, since they are only 18MP and 24MP. I was pretty happy with 24MP, but oh well…either way 40 something MP and 60MP is not gonna make a bit noticeable difference in the results, but whereas with the M11 you can at least reduce the file size to 32 and 18MP on the M10R you are stuck with a huge file all the time. 

Shutter sound —> no concern at all, pretty much the same as the M10R, too much ado about nothing. 

Start up time —> it’s a millisecond difference, you won’t be able to tell

Battery —> it does not last forever, but it is better than the M10

Build in memory / USB-C —> awesome features 

You’re forgetting to mention my favorite difference, the M11 has ISO 64 as Base ISO, whereas the M10 series is ISO 200. This is quite a significant difference to think about, especially if you shoot wide open a lot.

 

Anyway at the end of the day, if you like shooting with rangefinders you will enjoy both the M10R and the M11, and shooting both is a very very very similar experience.

Edited February 28, 2022 by shirubadanieru

[lct]

26 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Relatively sure.  The Sony E-mount registration distance is 18mm, the M mount is 27.9mm.  The Sony has ~10mm to play with so you can (and have to) add in a spacer, the Leica, obviously, has 0.

The body i imagine would be thinner while having the same register distance as current M cameras. It would have a protruding mount a-la-CL but such mount could be interchangeable with AF or IBIS adapters. Feel free to ask my details for royalties .

[peterinkingston]

Hey, thanks for not judging me and the good advice.

[peterinkingston]

1 hour ago, orcinus said:

Startup times are longer than i’d want them to be.

Everything else, except the bugs, is rationally irrelevant stuff people convince themselves, or others, is relevant in order to form a strong opinion.
Strong opinions matter in today’s world, because strong opinions sell (views, reads, ads).

M11 costs as much as M10R, does it not?
Create a table of pros and cons of each and make a decision based off of that.
But claiming 60 MP is a downgrade is just silly - you can always get less MP out of 60, but you can’t get 60 out of 24, can you?
And, again, the price remains the same.

Thanks, 

BTW I think 60Mp is amazing.

Two of my requirements are that:

- 60Mp means that sometimes I only need to take my 24mm lens and use it like the Q2 by cropping in. No need to carry my 28mm, 35mm and 50mm. Much lighter.

- I want to use the camera for Astro photography 1 hour exposure, 15 stops and all those pixels yummy.

 

[orcinus]

7 minutes ago, peterinkingston said:

Much lighter.

And if you get the black one, even lighter on top of that!
Don't get me wrong, i like the heft of brass, but now, whenever i go from an M240 (i know, i know, that's a chonker compared to M10) to M11 i sigh a sigh of relief

[Herr Barnack]

On 2/21/2022 at 9:00 AM, rramesh said:

The Real Leica Man is perfect and perfection stops at 10.

There are extra points awarded along with a discount coupon for a Tilley hat if The Real Leica Man shoots with an an M10 Monochrom.  🤠

Edited February 28, 2022 by Herr Barnack

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[SrMi]

2 hours ago, peterinkingston said:

Just another crazy thought.  Lots of us use half camera cases. These are not small and add a few mm to the camera but people use them. 

Maybe, you could build a stabilisation system into a camera case?  

Or you can use a gimbal or a tripod :).

[peterinkingston]

Have you seen those gimbals? They are so funny, they look like the TV camera crews on the football pitch. 

I have two tripods. One small and one large. Both really high quality. I must have carried them with me two or three times.

I used to really look the business with my super bag and lenses and cleaning equipment and spare batteries and note book and small stool.   Now I only take them if I have my car and driver or my team of sherpas.   

It's funny how people managed in the old days, but they did.

I remember my dad with his super 8 and 16 and his tripod etc. with his skinny legs and shorts.