LocalHero1953 Posted February 9, 2022 Share #21 Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 9 hours ago, M Journey said: All other things being equal, the m11 will always make you a better photographer. If you gave me a Leica m11 and another color m camera and I take the same photo with both cameras, the photo shot with the m11 will always be better. This is because, all other things being equal, the sensor of the m11 is better than other digital m cameras (for color photos). This is not subjective, this is fact. I could follow you up to this point - perhaps not agree with all you wrote, but it was a reasonable argument. But you lost me at this point! A better sensor does not make a better photograph, nor will it make you a better photographer, full stop. It might make an image with better IQ, but that is not a better photograph, on its own. IQ does not equate to good photography! Where I thought you were going with this argument is: a Leica M can make you a better photographer, who takes better photographs, if it just gets out of your way and lets you take the image that you, as a photographer, have seen out there in the wild. Other cameras distract you from fulfilling your potential: you will be pressing buttons and selecting options and presets when you should be watching and thinking only about the scene or your subject. One could argue about whether the M11 does just get out of the way: perhaps it does, or perhaps it has added too many options and things to worry about. (I don't know - I don't have one). Edited February 9, 2022 by LocalHero1953 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 9, 2022 Posted February 9, 2022 Hi LocalHero1953, Take a look here Interesting video: A critical look at Leicas' Marketing strategy and M11 features. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
M Journey Posted February 9, 2022 Share #22 Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) 27 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said: I could follow you up to this point - perhaps not agree with all you wrote, but it was a reasonable argument. But you lost me at this point! A better sensor does not make a better photograph, nor will it make you a better photographer, full stop. It might make an image with better IQ, but that is not a better photograph, on its own. IQ does not equate to good photography! Where I thought you were going with this argument is: a Leica M can make you a better photographer, who takes better photographs, if it just gets out of your way and lets you take the image that you, as a photographer, have seen out there in the wild. Other cameras distract you from fulfilling your potential: you will be pressing buttons and selecting options and presets when you should be watching and thinking only about the scene or your subject. One could argue about whether the M11 does just get out of the way: perhaps it does, or perhaps it has added too many options and things to worry about. (I don't know - I don't have one). I think we may be disagreeing about the definition of a photograph and the elements that make a better photograph. For me, and my definition, qualities such as noise and dynamic range contribute to the quality of a photo. Unless you are specifically going for a specific look, a photo with less nose and more dynamic range should be a better photograph than one with more noise and less dynamic range. These two variables are sensor dependent. So a photo, taken by the same person, in the same conditions, will be better with a camera with a better sensor. Therefore a better camera will make you a better photographer. I do agree that skill will always trump a better camera, all things not being equal. The abilities of the photographer and the camera used are independent of each other and both should be raised to reach the maximum level of photography. i think it is fair to say that the m11 might lessen the joy of photography, as many m shooters prefer the process to be as manual as possible. Maybe that is what people hate about the m and that is a perfectly legitimate argument. Just like how there is cooking from scratch but using items purchased at the grocery store, and cooking from scratch on a farm and growing your own ingredientes. Edited February 9, 2022 by M Journey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted February 9, 2022 Share #23 Posted February 9, 2022 I think we must agree to differ on this!🙂 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted February 9, 2022 Share #24 Posted February 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, M Journey said: I think we may be disagreeing about the definition of a photograph and the elements that make a better photograph. For me, and my definition, qualities such as noise and dynamic range contribute to the quality of a photo. Unless you are specifically going for a specific look, a photo with less nose and more dynamic range should be a better photograph than one with more noise and less dynamic range. These two variables are sensor dependent. So a photo, taken by the same person, in the same conditions, will be better with a camera with a better sensor. Therefore a better camera will make you a better photographer. I do agree that skill will always trump a better camera, all things not being equal. The abilities of the photographer and the camera used are independent of each other and both should be raised to reach the maximum level of photography. There is a technically and aesthetically better photo. A quote by Ansel Adams: There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept. On the other hand, there is no reason to produce a technically inferior image unless it is part of the aesthetics. Hence the need for better photographing techniques and better sensors. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted February 9, 2022 Share #25 Posted February 9, 2022 47 minutes ago, M Journey said: I think we may be disagreeing about the definition of a photograph and the elements that make a better photograph. Ennnh! "What makes a better photograph" is ultimately defined by human culture, not any one individual. What gets preserved for the ages as better. Survival of the fittest. Technical quality (whether from the photographer's skills, or the machinery used) may be a survival trait in that cultural equivalent of natural selection. But a survey of what has been preserved of photography thus far suggests that excellent technique and a "better" camera are not very important traits. Especially since the introduction of the 35mm camera. Which was clearly technically inferior in quality to previous formats - but drove them increasingly out of existence nevertheless. An awful lot of technically-excellent pictures have been left behind on society's cutting-room floor, never to be seen again. Whereas vision and creativity will show through and survive, no matter how lowly the equipment or the image quality. https://www.cincinnatiartmuseum.org/art/explore-the-collection/photography/rexroth/ Now, that doesn't mean that a photographer cannot or should not strive to be in control of her/his medium, and able to achieve the results s(he) wants, with any gear. But those results only count to the extent that they survive. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted February 9, 2022 Share #26 Posted February 9, 2022 Leica makes you a richer photographer..and poorer..after you bought into the system...lol.. It doesnt make you better or worse.. Thats dependent on what you see and feel..and in what depth.. Not brand specific or..wallet weight.. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 9, 2022 Share #27 Posted February 9, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 13 hours ago, M Journey said: I think it's pretty hypocritical to criticize people who are talking positively about the m11 based on the fact that these people were able to test/review the m11 for free, and then start criticizing the m11 without touching and using it. The m has never been about specs, if it was no one would purchase it over any other camera. The m has always been about how it feels to use it, the process of shooting with a range finder, and the pride and joy of ownership. I must have missed the criticism of people who talk positively of the M11 - where has that happened? As for deciding the M11 is not for me without touching or using it, and questioning much of the camera, really? That’s hypercritical? So, if I decide that a Porsche GT3 isn’t for me without driving it, preferring a Carrera 2S, that makes my reasons for not buying a GT3 invalid? We do this all the time - I haven’t bought an iPhone 13 Pro, as looking at the specs it doesn’t offer me anything I need, I haven’t bought the latest gee-wizz Samsung phone because it’s bigger than I need, it uses an operating system I’m not familiar with and I don’t like the look of it. Do you seriously take in hand and try everything you think you might or might not buy? When a new version of whatever phone you use is released, do you look at what it has to offer and consider if it’s for you? Or do you say to yourself “I might like that new phone. I’d better head off down to the shop and give it a try”? I don’t. I know my phone. When a new one comes out, I look at what it has to offer and decide, then order. Or not. We’re grown-ups here, and most M owners are quite capable of looking at the spec sheet of a camera and deciding it’s not for them (Sony? Tried them, not buying another regardless of the spec sheet). The reason people post here, and don’t just shrug and move on, is that the M inspires something in M owners - it’s a passioin, if you like. So, of course they will look at the new product, ask themselves “is it for me” and then decide. How many people order the camera sight unseen without tryiung it first or at least holding it in their hands? So, from me, no apologies for looking at the new camera, considering the specs of it and drawing the conclusion “no thanks”. If someone asks me, I’ll explain why. If I held it and tried it, would it be a more informed decision? Not really. I know exactly what an M camera feels like in the hand, I know what the shutter sounds like on all three of my M cameras (and the two others I’ve had and sold), I know I don’t need 60MP (and if there is any whiff of disadvantage, I don’t want it), I certainly don’t need down-res MP or in camera cropping and I know how to meter using the old centre-weighted meter off the shutter (and I certainly don’t want the camera deciding what to meter). So, what’s left? Much that I like, but not enough for me to upgrade. What would change about that decision if I used the camera? I already have two digital Ms. Why post my conclusions? Not to discourage or criticise those who have bought the camera, but to observe that the M11 seems to be taking the digital M in a direction that doesn’t appeal to me. Is that important? Not really. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted February 9, 2022 Share #28 Posted February 9, 2022 3 hours ago, M Journey said: I think we may be disagreeing about the definition of a photograph and the elements that make a better photograph. For me, and my definition, qualities such as noise and dynamic range contribute to the quality of a photo. Unless you are specifically going for a specific look, a photo with less nose and more dynamic range should be a better photograph than one with more noise and less dynamic range. These two variables are sensor dependent. So a photo, taken by the same person, in the same conditions, will be better with a camera with a better sensor. Therefore a better camera will make you a better photographer. I do agree that skill will always trump a better camera, all things not being equal. The abilities of the photographer and the camera used are independent of each other and both should be raised to reach the maximum level of photography. i think it is fair to say that the m11 might lessen the joy of photography, as many m shooters prefer the process to be as manual as possible. Maybe that is what people hate about the m and that is a perfectly legitimate argument. Just like how there is cooking from scratch but using items purchased at the grocery store, and cooking from scratch on a farm and growing your own ingredientes. If this were the case none of us would be shooting a small format like 135. Gordon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 10, 2022 Share #29 Posted February 10, 2022 This guy is a pretentious dick head but he does have a point about all reviews are suck up to leica/canon/nikon etc or you will not get a camera to review. Most reviews are a complete and utter waste of time because they have to say how wonderful the product is but not all thank god. I mean imagine reading a review by an "olympus ambassador" ???? same applies to leica . Most reviews resemble north korean views of their great leader and are ,fu***ng useless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ko.Fe. Posted February 10, 2022 Share #30 Posted February 10, 2022 (edited) I watched his video from 2015 a while ago and it was just empty. Maybe he has grown to be more with original content, but I doubt. He barely passed 10K subscribers after six years so far. With Leica more than with any other manufacturer you have to watch reviews from people who have used particular Leica camera for years. Usually those are independent and more into cameras as photography tools, not cameras as objects for reviews (to get views and subscriptions, not photos) . I'm not sure where this particular is resided. Newcomer in Montreal... I'd rather watch Kai W just for entertainment and good pronunciations Edited February 10, 2022 by Ko.Fe. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted February 10, 2022 Share #31 Posted February 10, 2022 I thought that was a fun video from Kai.. Shows how he hates the camera.. But just hints at it..lol.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted February 10, 2022 Share #32 Posted February 10, 2022 1 hour ago, tsleica said: I thought that was a fun video from Kai.. Shows how he hates the camera.. But just hints at it..lol.. I used to love Kai's videos. Past few years, he acts like he couldn't be bothered with Leica or the viewers. Disappointing. Other people who used to be interesting or someone you respected their opinions have disappointed as well. Not naming names, but they are more interested in stereos or promoting paranormal stuff. Or promoting their elephant skin camera bags or whatever. Jono on the other hand is the real deal. We have become good friends over the years, and he joined my group last November for the non-intro of the M11 in Wetzlar, which was cancelled at the last minute a few weeks before. What he does for Leica is truly a labor of love, and he does not have any hidden agendas. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ko.Fe. Posted February 10, 2022 Share #33 Posted February 10, 2022 8 minutes ago, derleicaman said: I used to love Kai's videos. Past few years, he acts like he couldn't be bothered with Leica or the viewers. Disappointing. Other people who used to be interesting or someone you respected their opinions have disappointed as well. Not naming names, but they are more interested in stereos or promoting paranormal stuff. Or promoting their elephant skin camera bags or whatever. Jono on the other hand is the real deal. We have become good friends over the years, and he joined my group last November for the non-intro of the M11 in Wetzlar, which was cancelled at the last minute a few weeks before. What he does for Leica is truly a labor of love, and he does not have any hidden agendas. I only started to watch Kai periodically, I guess nothing else to do on restrictions. Some years ago I can't stand him for how he was holding and goofing around with Leicas without any strap. As of Jono, can't comment on his YouTube videos. I haven't seen any... 😏 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted February 10, 2022 Share #34 Posted February 10, 2022 2 hours ago, tsleica said: Shows how he hates the camera.. ...by bringing his own to the party! Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/329604-interesting-video-a-critical-look-at-leicas-marketing-strategy-and-m11-features/?do=findComment&comment=4380892'>More sharing options...
tsleica Posted February 10, 2022 Share #35 Posted February 10, 2022 Kai..luvs the way his Leica m11...grabs..his genetic material..lol.. Leaving a nice crust..on the black finish! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david strachan Posted February 10, 2022 Share #36 Posted February 10, 2022 (edited) Some will like Kai's easy going, chatty, fun-time video. Others will find him irritating, lazy and with poor quality and content. And his noisy insisting assistant. His new Rode microphone just doesn't seem to cut it, or did Kai just leave the settings as it came "out of the box" ? Used to watch a few of his vids, but not for a long time...still the same unfortunately. Edited February 10, 2022 by david strachan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted February 10, 2022 Share #37 Posted February 10, 2022 2 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said: I only started to watch Kai periodically, I guess nothing else to do on restrictions. Some years ago I can't stand him for how he was holding and goofing around with Leicas without any strap. As of Jono, can't comment on his YouTube videos. I haven't seen any... 😏 Jono doesn't do videos. He's old school. He writes thoughtfully about his subject and does that well. He is a frequent contributor here on the LUF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ko.Fe. Posted February 11, 2022 Share #38 Posted February 11, 2022 2 hours ago, derleicaman said: Jono doesn't do videos. He's old school. He writes thoughtfully about his subject and does that well. He is a frequent contributor here on the LUF. Tell me something I don't know about him Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted February 11, 2022 Share #39 Posted February 11, 2022 Just now, Ko.Fe. said: Tell me something I don't know about him To his friends he goes by Jonathan 🙂 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted February 13, 2022 Share #40 Posted February 13, 2022 (edited) On 2/8/2022 at 4:42 PM, SrMi said: Another one who talks about M11 without having used the camera. Apparently there is no need to actually own/use/rent/borrow an M11 in order to review it. What a magical time we live in. 🙄 Edited February 13, 2022 by Herr Barnack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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