M11 Safe Shutter Speed?

[lct]

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56 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Not at the same magnification. Both images will have the same amount of blur. After all, the camera movement was the same. The higher pixel count will resolve an amount of blur which the lower count could not. So if you look at the image at the same magnification you will see no difference. [...]

I do and i always work at 100% magnification whatever the sensor used. We must not have the same eyesight i guess... Mine is almost perfect BTW (cataract surgery).

Edited May 18, 2024 by lct

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[Derbyshire Man]

@lct I think @01af's point is that 100% mag of 60mb will show more error than a 100% mag of 12mb like my old Canon 1ds but the most of us, 99.9% of the time that will never be seen on a print or screen representation of the whole image.

It's all too easy to forget that photography is about the whole, the final product not the individual grains of emulsion or pixels. The 60mb does give potential for medium format level details (particularly on the monochrom sensor) but that has the same limitations that have always been inherent in capturing that level of detail, ie the need for faster shutter speeds (or IBIS) for the very largest prints. On a monitor at whole image or a print of A1 my guess is that you'd be hard pushed to perceive anything other than a lower effective resolution.

 

[jaapv]

34 minutes ago, lct said:

I do and i always work at 100% magnification whatever the sensor used. We must not have the same eyesight i guess... Mine is almost perfect BTW (cataract surgery).

It is perfectly fine to work at 100% but it must be kept in mind that the results must be judged at viewing size Some or most 100% “flaws” are irrelevant and that is what Olaf and I are saying. 

[lct]

It seems that history is repeating itself here. Didn't we talk about this 2 years ago at the launch of the M11? At the time i had a 40mp Sony A7r2 mod (which i still have) and the 60mp M11 didn't change my mind. Ditto for the 60mp Sigma FPL. Interesting to use slow speeds handheld on the Sigma BTW. It doesn't have IBIS but EIS, but that's another question.

[jaapv]

I don’t know actually there is little to talk about given the 100% cult. 

[SrMi]

59 minutes ago, lct said:

I do and i always work at 100% magnification whatever the sensor used. We must not have the same eyesight i guess... Mine is almost perfect BTW (cataract surgery).

100% view of a 60MP image is of different magnification than 100% view of a 6MP image.

There is a difference if we view images of different magnifications.

[01af]

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vor 54 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

It is perfectly fine to work at 100 % ...

Yes.

.

vor 54 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

... but it must be kept in mind that the results must be judged at viewing size. Some or most 100 % “flaws” are irrelevant and that is what Olaf and I are saying.

Exactly.

It's revealing how this discussion pops up every time a higher-resolution-than-currently-usual sensor hits the market. Back when DSLR cameras with 6 or 8 MP were common, people wondered if existing lenses can resolve 11 - 14 MP and how sensitive to camera shake these super-high-resolving sensors would be.

As soon as 12 MP became common, everybody was happy using the very same lenses as before, at the very same hand-held shutter speeds. But then, 24 MP sensors arrived at the scene, and all that clamour started over and then died down ... and then again at 36 MP ... and then at 48 MP ... and now at 60 MP ... Just why can't people learn their lesson? Not even those who did use 6 MP cameras in the past?

Edited May 18, 2024 by 01af

[Jeff S]

A lot of the misunderstanding IMO is due to the fact that very few people print anymore, so the practical implications of MP vs magnification are lost for most.

Jeff

Edited May 18, 2024 by Jeff S

[Strmbrg]

I really don't know what magnification I use when editing my photos. Have never thought of that.
To me that doesn't matter.

Often I do not zoom in so very much, because then I lose the view of the image as it is meant to be looked at, namely as a whole. 🙂 

When zooming in too much I lose the ability to consider what will be noticeable. Or what is important to correct. By that I mean when looking at the whole image. If something isn't disturbing other than when I zoom in, it is totally out of importance to me. I adjust and edit things that matters. Matters for the impression of the image as a whole i.e.

Besides that, I notice very clearly that if an image is really good regarding composition, see-worthiness and such, the "peeping-technical-aspects" gets less important.
Boring images that are technically "perfect" are still boring.

The absolutely most important aspect of photography is the ability to see, the ability to see possibilities, the ability to find out what to do with what one sees, and much lower down comes the pure gear-technical parts of it all. Even lower down comes the "peeping".

Lots of photographers take boring photos. Some of them can't even get a level horizon, or they don't even think of if it is level or not, because they are into gear-mode and "peeping".

I think many of my own images are rather boring too. I delete many of them. Even the ones left are absolutely not top notch.

🙂

Edited May 18, 2024 by Strmbrg

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

A lot of the misunderstanding IMO is due to the fact that very few people print anymore, so the practical implications of MP vs magnification are lost for most.

Jeff

The discussion is also valid for people who do not print but share images online, typically with the same low resolution.

However, many people evaluate images at 100% view only, not at the quality of the output.

[Jeff S]

11 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The discussion is also valid for people who do not print but share images online, typically with the same low resolution.

However, many people evaluate images at 100% view only, not at the quality of the output.

Yes, that’s what I was trying to say.

Jeff

[lct]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

It is perfectly fine to work at 100% but it must be kept in mind that the results must be judged at viewing size Some or most 100% “flaws” are irrelevant and that is what Olaf and I are saying. 

Irrelevant for you but not for me nor, i suppose, other people missing image stabilization on the M11. Any way, camera shake blur is a problem solved for me as i don't use slower shutter speeds than 2/(f)s on the M11. For slower shutter speeds i use my M240 or high res cameras with IBIS or EIS.

[Strmbrg]

I had image stabilization in my now sold Q2. Well, it was good to have, I suppose.
Never thought of it or tried to compare blur with and without it activated. Actually I don't even know if it was possible to de-activate it. 😄
The high-ISO-performance of my M10-R is good enough to compensate for the lack of stabilization, I suppose.

And even when it comes to the matter of some noise at very high ISO, it is of less importance if the image in itself is good and worth looking at.

I think we are way too focused on improvements of gear-performance, and way too less focused on improving our own "performance" - when it comes to create aesthetically good images.
More or less exactly the same basic mentality as in hifi for many: The same "Brothers in Arms" and "Yello" all the time and the same focus on performance of the gear. 
🤣

Edited May 18, 2024 by Strmbrg

[jeri]

8 minutes ago, Strmbrg said:

'More or less exactly the same basic mentality as in hifi for many: The same "Brothers in Arms" and "Yello" all the time and the same focus on performance of the gear'. 
🤣

One hundred percent with you, regarding your last sentence.

[algrove]

On 2/7/2022 at 11:23 AM, yudafu2 said:

I am waiting for a silver M11, but I have a question for the lucky owners: 

What is the minimum shutter speed that you use to prevent camera shake?  I heard you need 3 times the focal length to be sure. Is that true?   A related question: is the minimum speed different when using different size DNGs? Say, does it require faster shutter when shooting 60mp while slower shutter at 18mp/36mp?

Thanks in advance. 

George 

OP

Of course much depends on the user-steady hands or not. For me I never use any formula, just 1/500 50mm and under and 1/1000 90 and above. For 75 I use either 1/500 or 1/1000.  

[IkarusJohn]

On 5/18/2024 at 9:56 PM, lct said:

Of course it is more visible at 60mp,  to claim otherwise is to deny the obvious. As for knowing for what purpose such comparisons are made what is stupid for you can be clever for others.

The obvious is that, on a 60MP camera, the blur is more detailed than on a 6MP camera.  At the same magnification on a computer screen, the blur isn’t more “visible”, whatever that really means, it’s just more detailed - you can zoom in further and admire the quality of your blur.

But, if you don’t zoom in, it will be the same.  Zoom out to printing size, and it will probably disappear in both prints.  The only reason to zoom in when processing is to see if there’s anything that will spoil the final print, or PDF.  You may wish your print to show no blur when viewed up close, but that does to dots per inch.  That is not so say that a 100MP image taken on a tripod with remote shutter release won’t reveal more detail when printed and viewed up close.  But that isn’t the same thing at all.  A 6MP image taken in the same way will just reveal less detail when printed and viewed at the same distance.

Perhaps what some are doing is thinking of this the wrong way round.  You have an object, say a light point, and your camera moves - that’s what blur is.  The lens has no impact on the amount of movement, nor does the sensor.  All that happens is the sensor captures the movement.  More detail in the image captured with a higher resolution lens and more MP doesn’t make anything “more visible”, unless you look at it more closely - surely that’s the bit that’s obvious?

Edited May 19, 2024 by IkarusJohn

[lct]

Thank you for explaining your views on what is a 20+ years experience for me, John, but i said all i had to say on this point so i will rest my case if you don't mind.

[IkarusJohn]

1 minute ago, lct said:

Thank you for explaining your views on what is a 20+ years experience for me, John, but i said all i had to say on this point so i will rest my case if you don't mind.

Why should I mind?  I’ve understood this problem for the 50 years I’ve been taking photos - 25 Kodachrome v others.  We are just sharing our experiences - how they’re delivered matters, I guess.

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[lct]

I'm just a grumpy but polite old guy 😉

[jaapv]

On 5/18/2024 at 5:25 PM, lct said:

Irrelevant for you but not for me nor, i suppose, other people missing image stabilization on the M11. Any way, camera shake blur is a problem solved for me as i don't use slower shutter speeds than 2/(f)s on the M11. For slower shutter speeds i use my M240 or high res cameras with IBIS or EIS.

Well, irrelevant as in invisible. The amount of blur will always be the same. It only depends on camera movement, not on megapixels.