Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[thrid]

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On 11/6/2023 at 11:14 AM, pgk said:

Any mount which lacks electronic information transfer (6-bit does not transfer data, it simply tells the camera which lens is mounted) is effectively obsolete and so the M mount and RF cameras which use it are obsolete technically for the simple reason that they are a dead end. They survive because they work with M lenses acceptably enough for their users. They cannot really compete with other EVF systems because they cannot be updated and have to rely on pure optical excellence combined with sensors optimised to work with most of them.

This has been explained many times in this thread but all the disadvantages of the M-RF will transfer over to an M-EVF which will even lose some of the advantages such as accurate wide angle focusing. An M shaped L mount camera makes far better sense.

They could add electronic contacts to the M mount. Nikon did it to the F-mount.

If anything makes the M-mount 'obsolete' it's maybe the diameter. A mount with a greater diameter would offer some advantages to designing lenses.

But putting the bigger L-mount on an M body may result in a bigger camera, unless they potentially kill the RF unit and use that space.

 

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[thrid]

On 11/6/2023 at 11:48 AM, jaapv said:

Ah -but M lenses are falling behind L lenses in excellence...for a simple reason. The restrictions of the mount are holding them back 

True, the bigger diameter of the Canon mount helps with lens design. It's much easier to design a high performance lens when it doesn't have to be M sized.

But one of the main reasons why many shoot Leica M is because the lenses aren't the size of a can of soup...

[pop]

20 minutes ago, thrid said:

Firing off a single shot felt inappropriate enough and I knew that if they heard it, it would all be over. I can't even imagine how offensive it would have been to hammer her with one or more 10-20 frame bursts.

I can't understand you insistence that you have to shoot in bursts when using a camera with an EVF. I don't even think the latency of a reasonably recent camera with an EVF would affect the timing of your exposure at all. You see the beginning of an emotion in a face, you press the shutter, you get the picture. If you watch the scene through an EVF, you see everything a few milliseconds later than you would by naked eye, but so does your camera. This isn't the time of the Digilux 2 which fired only half a second after you pressed the release.

Firing a single shot with an EVF camera could have the added benefit that you can't hear the shot when using the electronic shutter. One point for the digital device.

[thrid]

21 minutes ago, pop said:

I can't understand you insistence that you have to shoot in bursts when using a camera with an EVF. I don't even think the latency of a reasonably recent camera with an EVF would affect the timing of your exposure at all. You see the beginning of an emotion in a face, you press the shutter, you get the picture. If you watch the scene through an EVF, you see everything a few milliseconds later than you would by naked eye, but so does your camera. This isn't the time of the Digilux 2 which fired only half a second after you pressed the release.

Firing a single shot with an EVF camera could have the added benefit that you can't hear the shot when using the electronic shutter. One point for the digital device.

Sorry, I'm just not sold on the EVF technology, yet. I have tried everything from a Z9 to the SL2 and Q. For my shooting there is too much lag and I hate looking at a TV image.

As I have said several times before, it may work perfectly fine for many other people, but not for me. And that's fine. I'm all for live and let live.

 

If Leica comes out with an EVF-M I'll give it a go and if it doesn't work for me I'll just stick with shooting with whatever was the last OVF M and that will be it. Heck I may even go back to shooting film.

The M11 gets 14+ stops of range and 60MP is more than I will ever need. As long as they continue to support it and make spare batteries I'll be fine.

If EVF tech suddenly matures and it works for me I'll gladly come back.

But as I mentioned before, I have a feeing that a EVF and OVF M would coexist, because there are too many people in both camps who are pretty adamant about their opinion and way of shooting.

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by thrid

[setuporg]

The thread we have going for years starts off with a false premise.  It’s important to redress the subject and set the record straight.

As most members know, M stands for 

Messsucher

— which means rangefinder.

Hence there is no such thing as “EVF-only M camera.”

It couid be EVF-only M-mount compatible camera.  It couid be M-shaped camera.  It couid be many things.  It won’t be an M camera.

[thrid]

On 11/6/2023 at 8:27 AM, jaapv said:

Just make a fake M front complete with frameline selector and and windows. It can easily be printed and attached with Velcro. That should satisfy any HCB pretender. A pair of rimless glasses to go with it should be simple enough to buy. 

That's cute, jaapv

[Jeff S]

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The first post in that thread already makes the point.  This has been discussed ad nauseam.

 

Jeff

[setuporg]

Of course.  But the first impression is the strongest.  The subject is wrong there.  Just pointing that out.  Also great to see you Jeff!:)

[algrove]

1 hour ago, thrid said:

True, the bigger diameter of the Canon mount helps with lens design. It's much easier to design a high performance lens when it doesn't have to be M sized.

But one of the main reasons why many shoot Leica M is because the lenses aren't the size of a can of soup...

I thought after the 0.95 Noctilux Karbe would not go large any longer, but boy was I wrong--enter the 90/1.5 and 75/1.25.

[algrove]

1 hour ago, thrid said:

Sorry, I'm just not sold on the EVF technology, yet. I have tried everything from a Z9 to the SL2 and Q. For my shooting there is too much lag and I hate looking at a TV image.

I never had lag with my Q's mainly due to the leaf shutter which is quiet for up close shooting.

[FrozenInTime]

Dogmatic thinking given the M1 , MDa, MD-2 ....

[bcaslis]

You have seen the latest Leica M ads? I don't see it stated with this dogma there. And all the recent lenses all have close focusing that the rangefinder don't do.

[Stevejack]

It's a tricky one. A lot of us use an M camera to escape the feeling of shooting with a computer... the M is the closest thing to using an analog camera while still having the advantages of digital capture.

I think they should keep a pure rangefinder camera with mechanical shutter, and add-on EVF is a good compromise.

I'm not against an EVF only camera in the leica M form-factor, I think the size and aesthetics of the camera, along with the ability to use M lenses, is what draws a lot of people to it rather than just the range finder experience. 

I think Leica really misstepped with the e-shutter in the M11. It should have been a stacked sensor or left out completely... having rolling shutter on a camera, which some would say is designed with street photography in mind, is just crazy. Now that Sony has just brought out a global shutter maybe that tech will find its way into newer digital Leicas.

Of course that opens up a whole new set of options. Pre-capture coupled with 120fps means it's impossible to miss 'the decisive moment' so perhaps it will take the fun out of it completely 😅

 

[LanceR]

I have been enjoying this thread as I am one the would consider a EVF-M.  For me, I would want to see a richer feature set than what is currently offered by an M11 with Visoflex II.

Recently, I was in a camera store with a Nikon Zf.  I specifically experimented with the new hybrid auto / manual focus.

The idea of combining subject and eye detection with manual focus is very appealing to me.  For me, it is an infinitely better focusing aid than focus peaking.  I could point the camera at a face that was off center and seeing the focus rectangle appear over the eye as I manually focused, was, quite nice.

I would certainly accept this type of feature on an M camera with the screen or Visoflex as well.

I find that as I age, my ability to detect contrast difference is decreasing.  I simply do not see the contrast pop in the patch like I used to see it.  I am not willing to give much on the size of the camera body and lenses.  I love the size of the M system.

I understand that many would find that type of functionality inconsistent with the M philosophies, which I can certainly understand.

In the end, an EVF-M would not change my photography.  What that type of hybrid focus could do is give me a bit more confidence in manual focusing with a shallow depth of field and focal lengths that are generally a bit more difficult with the RF.

 

 

 

[Erato]

Maybe SL3 is coming soon.

Perhaps, R&D is reconsidering the possibilities of CL2/TL3.

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, setuporg said:

The thread we have going for years starts off with a false premise.  It’s important to redress the subject and set the record straight.

As most members know, M stands for 

Messsucher

— which means rangefinder.

Hence there is no such thing as “EVF-only M camera.”

It couid be EVF-only M-mount compatible camera.  It couid be M-shaped camera.  It couid be many things.  It won’t be an M camera.

"The current thread about this didn't go the way I would have liked, so I'm going to start a new one because my opinion belongs on the top of the pile."

Oh, FFS 🙃

[setuporg]

Nope, just correcting the terminology.

The previous one is about whether you’d buy an EVF-only M-mount compatible / M-shaped camera.  You’re still welcome to buy one!:)

[lct]

Call it as you like but assuming it has such a lens mount, the EVF-M would be simply an M-mount camera, the same way as film M's without rangefinder.

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[raizans]

Mmhmm...just wait until Leica calls the EVF-M an M.

"M stands for Messsucher" is descriptive, not prescriptive.

[setuporg]

1 hour ago, raizans said:

Mmhmm...just wait until Leica calls the EVF-M an M.

"M stands for Messsucher" is descriptive, not prescriptive.

I bet you 2 pfennigs it won't.