M11 Highlights and shadows

[scott kirkpatrick]

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The dynamic range data on the M11 at PhotonstoPhotos is now posted.  The results at ISO 64 are really special.

 

The M11 is one stop better than all previous products at ISO64, and within one stop of the M10-M at high ISOs.

Edited January 21, 2022 by scott kirkpatrick

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[Photoworks]

the M11 goes to 11

[scott kirkpatrick]

There is a separate thread in  Digital Post-Processing that compares the M11 and several M10 models and starts to address the obvious question of how much room will you find for detail in highlights above the exposure that the camera is suggesting..  I'm not a dedicated ETTR guy, but I would like to know if the extra two stops at ISO 64 is gained mostly above or below, when compared with the camera's behavior at ISO200, where the extra boost kicks in.   I assume I will set min ISO to 64 on nice days and tp 200 when it's night, or indoors in natural lighting.  Do things change?  Or do we have extra highight protection in both regimes?

Edited January 21, 2022 by scott kirkpatrick

[scott kirkpatrick]

5 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

the M11 goes to 11

12, actually.

[SrMi]

10 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

There is a separate thread in  Digital Post-Processing that compares the M11 and several M10 models and starts to address the obvious question of how much room will you find for detail in highlights above the exposure that the camera is suggesting..  I'm not a dedicated ETTR guy, but I would like to know if the extra two stops at ISO 64 is gained mostly above or below, when compared with the camera's behavior at ISO200, where the extra boost kicks in.   I assume I will set min ISO to 64 on nice days and tp 200 when it's night, or indoors in natural lighting.  Do things change?  Or do we have extra highight protection in both regimes?

Thanks for the post. M11 has the highest maximum DR of all M cameras, color or monochrome, though, at higher ISOs, the Monochrom is still the king

DR is all about noise in shadows. Highlights are all about proper exposure.

"Highlight recovery" isn't a sensor characteristic. It's something you hope to squeeze out of the image when you have missed your exposure. If you expose properly (eg. Exposure To The Right) your highlights are properly exposed and "highlight recover" is moot. Then, how much you can "recover" from the shadows is ultimately what matters. (Bill Claff)

[SrMi]

The main DR improvement with the new M11 is at ISO 64. As expected, the results are similar to M10-R at higher ISOs. M11 is better between ISO 200 and 300 (half stop) thanks to dual-gain conversion. Of course, other elements matter at high ISO than just the ground noise level.
M11 has even a bit higher max DR than the landscape shooting champ Z 7 II :).

 

[adan]

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Well, I'd read the PtoP charts as:

M11 puts out virtually identical DR at comparable ISOs as the previous Bayer-color M digitals. "Virtually identical" = "probably not obvious to the naked eye". Those lines are tight together

But with 50-125% more, smaller, pixels.(60 vs. 40 vs. 24). Thus better pixel efficiency.

And extends the ISO and DR range at the low end (holds shadow tones better with an exposure that doesn't clip the highlights).

And then applies a default tone curve that makes full use of the delicate (in all senses of the word) highlight range - as revealed in the various "sun in the picture" examples that have been posted in the Images thread. One can get a brighter picture overall without clipping.

Rather interesting that the kink in the M11 line, where dual-gain kicks in, is at ISO 200 - most other implementations of DG do that at higher ISOs (400-800).

[SrMi]

23 minutes ago, adan said:

Well, I'd read the PtoP charts as:

M11 puts out virtually identical DR at comparable ISOs as the previous Bayer-color M digitals. "Virtually identical" = "probably not obvious to the naked eye". Those lines are tight together

But with 50-125% more, smaller, pixels.(60 vs. 40 vs. 24). Thus better pixel efficiency.

And extends the ISO and DR range at the low end (holds shadow tones better with an exposure that doesn't clip the highlights).

And then applies a default tone curve that makes full use of the delicate (in all senses of the word) highlight range - as revealed in the various "sun in the picture" examples that have been posted in the Images thread. One can get a brighter picture overall without clipping.

Rather interesting that the kink in the M11 line, where dual-gain kicks in, is at ISO 200 - most other implementations of DG do that at higher ISOs (400-800).

PtoP measures DR of various cameras at the same CoC, which is similar to resizing camera outputs to the same size, thus negating the ‘disadvantage’ of smaller pixels. You will see more noise at 100% view with high resolution M11, but not at the same output level.

[Nilei]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb SrMi:

The main DR improvement with the new M11 is at ISO 64. As expected, the results are similar to M10-R at higher ISOs. M11 is better between ISO 200 and 300 (half stop) thanks to dual-gain conversion. Of course, other elements matter at high ISO than just the ground noise level.
M11 has even a bit higher max DR than the landscape shooting champ Z 7 II :).

 

I would rather say equal to the D850 which is on the market for more than 4 years.
Nevertheless, definitely an excellent and very competitive result for the M11.

[M11 for me]

But what many specialists claim: there is very little progress over the last 5 years or so when it comes to noise improvements. My new Canon R5 or my Leica M11 are not better in the real world than their predecessors (unless you want to got to 400% magnification).

But still there is a difference between the M10 and M11: Due to the improved light metering option it is much more unlikely to have clipped highlights. Plus: In "normal situations" you can easily shoot in A mode (shutter time A and ISO A).

Edited January 21, 2022 by M10 for me

[SrMi]

15 minutes ago, Nilei said:

I would rather say equal to the D850 which is on the market for more than 4 years.
Nevertheless, definitely an excellent and very competitive result for the M11.

Nikon D850 and the latest Z 7 II have the same max. PDR, not much is changing there. AFAIK, Nikons and Leica M11 are the only cameras with ISO 64 as base ISO.

FWIW, Leica M11 has the highest max. PDR of all Leica cameras.

[Adam Bonn]

1 hour ago, adan said:

Rather interesting that the kink in the M11 line, where dual-gain kicks in, is at ISO 200

I wondered that too, isn't 200 the next value on the ISO dial after 64, coincidence or kinda like saying you're better off using either 64 and failing that then go to 200?

[scott kirkpatrick]

19 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

I wondered that too, isn't 200 the next value on the ISO dial after 64, coincidence or kinda like saying you're better off using either 64 and failing that then go to 200?

If you use M to set ISO there are settings at 64, 80, 100, 125 and 160 before you reach 200.  On the outside dial  there is just 64 or 200.  Setting 64 as my base ISO for use with A mode, I've seen all of these in use.

Edited January 21, 2022 by scott kirkpatrick

[Adam Bonn]

13 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

If you use M to set ISO there are settings at 64, 80, 100, 125 and 160 before you reach 200.  On the outside dial  there is just 64 or 200.  Setting 64 as my base ISO for use with A mode, I've seen all of these in use.

Thanks Scott, I don't have the camera so I was going off memory of photos I've seen of it.

As is common with dual gain sensors you can get slightly more DR going up the ISO range just before the cut over point, here for example it looks like 200 gives one a fraction more DR than 160, but I doubt it would be a life changing difference out in the field 😄

[a.noctilux]

Out of curiosity, to see if the curves have practical use, I try Sony A7R (without other M in the chart), only M11/A7R.

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M11,Sony ILCE-7R

Almost as good almost 12 EV !

I never know that I already have a gem of sensor, in A7R since many years

[SrMi]

30 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Out of curiosity, to see if the curves have practical use, I try Sony A7R (without other M in the chart), only M11/A7R.

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M11,Sony ILCE-7R

Almost as good almost 12 EV !

I never know that I already have a gem of sensor, in A7R since many years

Nikon D800 has a similar PDR curve (launched in early 2012). The sensor technology has not much advanced in that regard. Note that there are elements of image quality that are not describable by PDR.

[a.noctilux]

10 years later 😵 or earlier, only 36 Mpix in 2012.

Same sensor in A7R and 800D (saw this as IMX094AQP )

[sebben]

These graphs say nothing about banding.

So even sensors that measure the same might look totally different once you lift the shadows after bad under exposure.
 

I would test camera before buying them if possible and not buy based off these numbers. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by sebben

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[a.noctilux]

Of course,

we all (maybe ?) know that highlight whiting is user's error in exposure 🤞

relying on sensor high count DR would be counterproductive, in my view,

but I may be wrong.

[hdmesa]

24 minutes ago, sebben said:

These graphs say nothing about banding. So even sensors that measure the same might look totally different once you lift the shadows after band under exposure. I would test camera before buying them if possible and not buy based off these numbers. 

And the M11 sensor is the only sensor at this pixel density that doesn't have to deal with PDAF banding.

Edited January 22, 2022 by hdmesa