Off Topic (from The Leica M11 images thread)

[LUF Admin]

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The story started Wednesday last week (January 12th) and is still going on with several chapters.

A small preface:

Such cases are a kind of moderator’s dilemma: I want to provide as much transparency as possible but I'm limited in what I can write.

• Privacy: Some things were said in email conversations which are confidential, some touch NDAs I have signed.
• Fairness: It lies in the nature of a ban that the banned member can make his case. So you must rely on my word. The ban has its reasons and I'm not going to lift it. I try to explain everything by lying out the facts and explaining my decisions.
• Rules: Some posts are hidden – for reasons. So I'm not going to publish stuff which is hidden.

In a nutshell:

• Steven posted images made with the Leica M11 on the day before the launch.
• I hid them and explained to him that such posts are dangerous the forum’s and my personal reputation at Leica.
• He agreed but started another thread, this time telling his personal experience with the M11.
• This time I banned him until the launch.
• After that he registered four (4) new accounts, trying to circumvent the ban, post more content and to smear me in long posts
• Nevertheless I lifted his ban after he agreed to keep to the rules and to accept my role as host.
• On the same day he posted another long off topic post explaining again, why his Leica M11 posts were OK.

This was the point when I banned him indefinitely:

He insists on posting confidential content which puts my relationship to my most important customer at risk. 
Sorry, at this point I'm not going to make any compromise.

For more context, here is what I wrote during this process:

First ban (Thursday)

Second ban (Friday):

More context:

 

 

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[LUF Admin]

Yesterday two long time members asked me to have their accounts deleted.

I personally regret their decision but I have to accept it.

And – believe it or not – I appreciate members who are committed to helping others, in this case Steven

I received some PMs from members asking for details and if Steven's ban can be lifted again.

I can only ask for understanding that my decision stands – that's why I try to explain my point of view here.

Andreas

[frame-it]

i think its fairly straightforward...one should not reveal corporate/product details before launch, sharing it after its already leaked into the public domain is another matter

 

[Daedalus2000]

I personally found his contributions interesting. Steven seemed to be driven by a genuine love for photography and for exploring the Leica lenses and cameras. He had the financial ability to play with anything he wanted and he was able to communicate with enthusiasm in a very contagious way. It is a pity that he and the other 2 senior members are gone. It seems that Nowhereman is also gone, he must be one of the two.

But, I have to say that it is very strange that Steven had his own production M11 even before the launch.. That must imply an extremely good relationship with Leica but also (maybe) that Leica was not bothered by him sharing so much before the launch... Maybe they thought his contributions were creating a lot of activity and interest... Just a thought.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Daedalus2000

[Herr Barnack]

This has been an inauspicious chapter in the forum's history.  Steven is quite talented as an image maker, and he is a friend.  His images, thoughts and observations will be missed. 

I do not understand Steven's thinking that resulted in some of his actions in this chain of events.  That said, I do not think @LUF Admin treated him unjustly.  JMHO.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[michali]

8 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

This has been an inauspicious chapter in the forum's history. ........

Not really, he's not the first or the last. There have been several of these incidents before, and I'm sure there'll be more to follow.

Personally I don't want to belabour this any further,  however my issue with Steven's attitude is that it's indicative of the pervasive lack of respect that some people have for others' sensitivities and views, in this case our host's.

FWIW I believe that relationships are fundamentally built on respect, trust and boundaries. Breach any one of those and the relationship is over.

[ianman]

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But why wait until now? I understand the reasoning for the ban but he clearly had inside information that he was openly and proudly leaking for over a year. I didn’t always agree with him but I thought he was a pleasant and interesting member even if somewhat OTT on occasions.

[LUF Admin]

1 minute ago, ianman said:

But why wait until now? I understand the reasoning for the ban but he clearly had inside information that he was openly and proudly leaking for over a year.

I simply didn't notice. Otherwise I would have contacted him earlier.

Just to be clear: I didn't ban him but asked him to stop disclosing images.

Andreas

[Jeff S]

52 minutes ago, LUF Admin said:

I simply didn't notice. Otherwise I would have contacted him earlier.

 

Thanks for your summary, which makes the actions taken easy to understand. Before hearing about Steven’s recent behavior, my initial question, too, was why now?  Just in case you haven’t since been informed on the year long reporting, the following thread (started a year ago by Steven) is the primary source, even though there was carryover in other threads.  There are many tidbits along the way, not just about the M11, but also about other products, including the M12. 

 

Jeff

[Guest]

Perhaps it has been linguistic and cultural differences that long ago warned me not to be engaged in fruitless discussions with Steven.
He's been on my ignore list for a long time along with a few others, but this is just a warning sign for me not to communicate, or to be extremely careful, with these forum members.
There is no substitute for politeness also online, no matter how much you brag about your financial resources to fulfill yourself every wish at Leica immediately.

[LUF Admin]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

my initial question, too, was why now?

Thanks for the link, I can only repeat myself: I wasn't aware of this thread.

Andreas

[Herr Barnack]

2 hours ago, mnutzer said:

...There is no substitute for politeness also online, no matter how much you brag about your financial resources to fulfill yourself every wish at Leica immediately.

Steven has a lot of M cameras and lenses.  He talked about them and showed images he made with them.

I did not once read him bragging about his personal net worth.  Talking about your cameras and lenses does not equate to bragging about your personal net worth. 

Talking about your Leica cameras and lenses and showing images made with them is why this forum exists.

Steven is now gone, and apparently some are happy about that.  It is pointless to kick a man when he's down.  

[Olaf_ZG]

Pity. Steven had many things and insights to share and though a lurker, a learned a lot about Leica from him but also from others.

I was in the opinion this was an independent forum, but obviously it is not. Big pity.

Though I do understand Andreas, as he needs to listen to his biggest customer, it bothers me that somehow ‘free’ speech is not allowed or at least sensored. 
 

Because of this, how can I know -in case non Leica products are being discussed- things are sensored or not? This bothers me, as I was hoping to get neutral info here, after ofcourse filtering it from the pink glasses by most members…

pity.

[UliWer]

5 minutes ago, jaapv said:

but any opinion in comparison to non-Leica gear is welcome.

To express it less diplomatically: There is no place with more criticism of Leica products and the Leica Camera AG than this Forum. 

[UliWer]

34 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

Pity. Steven had many things and insights to share and though a lurker, a learned a lot about Leica from him but also from others.

I was in the opinion this was an independent forum, but obviously it is not. Big pity.

How comes that about half a dozen people had the M11 in advance for a beta test to be published in this Forum and did not post over here for weeks: "I know something..", "I was told..." "I know better..."? What makes the difference between these people and one that is pitied so much?

I call it decency, or just manners. 

 

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, UliWer said:

How comes that about half a dozen people had the M11 in advance for a beta test to be published in this Forum and did not post over here for weeks: "I know something..", "I was told..." "I know better..."? What makes the difference between these people and one that is pitied so much?

I call it decency, or just manners. 

 

i think one other point here is revealing that one is doing beta testing..that's also a no-no, but some people cant help mentioning that they're beta testing

in the corporate world, leaks beforehand can sometimes have disastrous financial consequences or sometimes artificially push shares up which fuels more speculation in the market.

[Olaf_ZG]

1 hour ago, UliWer said:

How comes that about half a dozen people had the M11 in advance for a beta test to be published in this Forum and did not post over here for weeks: "I know something..", "I was told..." "I know better..."? What makes the difference between these people and one that is pitied so much?

I call it decency, or just manners. 

 

To be clear, I do not pity Steven. I pity the fact he is banned as I liked his contributions (not all though).

Rules are rules, and I do understand therefore the action Andreas took.

[Olaf_ZG]

But still, if Steven broke a rule set by Leica, they should have punished him.

Now they let Andreas do it. Kind of childish. They should have kicked him out of the beta program and that is it.

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[UliWer]

32 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

They should have kicked him out of the beta program

Do you know if he was in any beta program by Leica?

[masjah]

25 minutes ago, Olaf_ZG said:

But still, if Steven broke a rule set by Leica, they should have punished him.

Now they let Andreas do it. Kind of childish. They should have kicked him out of the beta program and that is it.

I hesitate even to enter this brouhaha, but this is not an accurate representation of events. 

If Steven was involved with Leica (and I haven't the faintest idea if this was the case) and he broke an agreement between them (and I haven't the faintest idea if this was the case) then they may well in any event have taken action against him (and I haven't the faintest idea if this was the case).

But there is no question of their letting Andreas do their job for them. There is a completely different set of rules, namely the rules of the Forum. It is for serious and repeated breaches of the Forum rules that has prompted Andreas to take action.