Off Topic (from The Leica M11 images thread)

[tritentrue]

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I regard it as a privilege to be a member of this forum.  I appreciate that certain standards are largely upheld by the membership, and usually remediated when they are not.    I support @LUF Admin's action in this matter.

[Guest]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Herr Barnack:

...Steven is now gone, and apparently some are happy about that.  It is pointless to kick a man when he's down.  

We're not sitting in a 1950's cowboy movie, but I understand that some still have the philosophy of that shown era.

Edited January 19, 2022 by mnutzer

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[aristotle]

I happened to be poking around at the time that he started the thread that precipitated this (the one with the images.)  Somebody posted a link to a youtube video review of the M11 in the "your next camera?" thread (the reviewer was in Asia someplace...forget the guys name) that evidently went live before it was supposed to.  Steven's comment in that thread was something like "Oh...looks like it's OK to post now", and almost immediately started his M11 image thread.  Sounds like things got out of control and he escalated things.  My guess is that he wasn't originally trying to break the rules...but things escalated after that.  The youtube video was pulled within an hour or so, so it was clearly a mistake...but you couldn't tell that at the time.  

[ianman]

1 hour ago, Olaf_ZG said:

They should have kicked him out of the beta program and that is it.

AFAIK he wasn’t a beta tester. Just a very good customer over the last year or so who was getting inside information about new products. He never hid this and often said he was not under NDA.

[Herr Barnack]

1 hour ago, mnutzer said:

We're not sitting in a 1950's cowboy movie, but I understand that some still have the philosophy of that shown era.

🙄  Speaking of pointless...

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, aristotle said:

 (the reviewer was in Asia someplace...forget the guys name)

he is from hong kong, but lives in the UK..and the video looked like it was in the UK...kai wong is his name

[david strachan]

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Steven's off-beat photographs had a lovely charm certainly, I enjoyed following.  And his "feeding the chooks" approach was a game he enjoyed, as did many of us.

BUT...one doesn't play tennis by one's own rules, or have covid lockdown parties, or say what we like,... or drive a car.  We are constrained everywhere...

Again we have to fit in, not abuse the system...it's goodbye Steven, really.

...

Edited January 19, 2022 by david strachan

[stray cat]

Kind of like Novak Djokovic in a way...

[shirubadanieru]

I too miss Steven posts and also the other two longtime users as their content was the one mostly aligned with the reason why I love Leica and come to this forum (vintage lenses, glowy lenses, trying out different lenses/rendering and so on). Without them this forum definitely loses a lot, but I guess it’s up to us here to keep delivering good content and making an effort to share our pictures and experiences with each other. 

I totally understand why the actions taken were taken, and thank you for the transparency and open discussion about it. I am sure it must have been a stressful period for the admins, having to deal with not only the launch of a new camera, but also these matters here in the forum, and also with the Leica stakeholders who put trust on the admins, so thank you for your efforts and work here during that rough period. 

As for Steven, I also don’t know how / why he had the camera as he was not a beta user as it seems, so if he breached something that’s up to Leica to solve, but when it comes to the forum, it’s up to the admins and the rules set here to determine if he should stay or go, and the decision was that he broke the rules and was not polite, so I understand the decision.

Thanks once again, and let’s make this forum a positive environment for all of us who are here because the fact is that we are all here because we love Leica; there aren’t many of us out there, so let’s make sure we support each other and let’s be kind to one another!

Edited January 19, 2022 by shirubadanieru

[LUF Admin]

7 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

But still, if Steven broke a rule set by Leica, they should have punished him.

Now they let Andreas do it. Kind of childish. They should have kicked him out of the beta program and that is it.

As @masjah said: Leica wasn't involved and the reason for the ban were only related to the Leica Forum (which includes my relationship to Leica).

6 hours ago, UliWer said:

Do you know if he was in any beta program by Leica?

We had him as a tester under NDA earlier last year in another test, but I don't know if he was a Leica M11 beta tester.

Andreas

[Guest BlackBarn]

52 minutes ago, LUF Admin said:

Leica wasn't involved and the reason for the ban were only related to the Leica Forum (which includes my relationship to Leica)

Is it possible to be clearer what is your relationship to Leica in relation to the forum and it’s members?  

For example: do you receive any payment from Leica for forum based services rendered?

I very much appreciated and support Steven’s contribution but not to the extent if he knowingly broke legal or moral commitments given to Leica or those closely associated to Leica. If he did then your action was fully understandable.and supportable.

However I would like to be assured that the decision to ban him was not based on any possible loss of financial benefits to yourself which - if so - would suggest a lack of even handedness  in your decision making.

It’s important to me that the forum is a truly polite open minded exchange of concerns,  ideas and interests of its members  and not some sort of farming of information for Leica et al.

 

[michali]

1 hour ago, BlackBarn said:

Is it possible to be clearer what is your relationship to Leica in relation to the forum and it’s members?  

For example: do you receive any payment from Leica for forum based services rendered?

I very much appreciated and support Steven’s contribution but not to the extent if he knowingly broke legal or moral commitments given to Leica or those closely associated to Leica. If he did then your action was fully understandable.and supportable.

However I would like to be assured that the decision to ban him was not based on any possible loss of financial benefits to yourself which - if so - would suggest a lack of even handedness  in your decision making.

It’s important to me that the forum is a truly polite open minded exchange of concerns,  ideas and interests of its members  and not some sort of farming of information for Leica et al.

 

Respectfully, I think that Andreas' relationship with Leica, financial or otherwise, is not any of our business.

Andreas has openly fully explained his reasons for his actions & even reinstated the guy at one point. Maybe time to stop flogging this dead horse, the guy broke the rules repeatedly, he's not the victim in this saga.

To your point about the polite open-minded exchange of information, there's no shortage of that. Just read through the numerous discussions & often heated debates & exchanges  at either end of the opinion scale incl.  both Leica-bashing & Leica-fanboyism & everything in between. Farming of information takes place at every level the moment one enters the www.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by michali

[LUF Admin]

Just to put things in the context:

There is no place on earth with more critical analysis of Leica products than the Leica Forum.

If you don't agree, please prove me wrong.

Our mission is to provide an open discussion about everything related to Leica and Leica products.

Having said that: Yes we work for Leica Camera and we are paid for our work:

• Surveys. You can call this „farming of information for Leica“, we see it as win-win situation: Leica gets first hand opinion from their most passionate customers, you can be sure that Leica is taking your opinion into account when developing new products and services.
• Beta Tests. From time to time some forum members test new products, like the M11 for example. Win-win again: feedback from the field for Leica, great reviews from experienced and trusted forum members right from the launch (Jono, Tom, Siggi, Elmar, Stefan)
• Mediation: If members have issues with products or services we are often contacting the right people in Wetzlar. Again – a win-win situation.

We are transparent with our relationship to Leica – at least until a certain level.

We are not 100% independent but we try to find the best balance in the interest of the community. In my opinion a good relationship to Leica is essential for the forum, this includes a lot of criticism but also providing a level playing field: Disclosing confidential content is not accepted.

Andreas

[UliWer]

2 hours ago, michali said:

Respectfully, I think that Andreas' relationship with Leica, financial or otherwise, is not any of our business.

You are right, that it isn't our business. 

Though transparency is always good.

I didn't know until now, that the forum is paid by Leica for certain services like surveys and beta tests.

This does not change my appreciation of the forum at all, but it is good to know.

[Olaf_ZG]

Thank you @LUF Admin for your openness. 

[andybarton]

Any corporate wishing to do market research is going to pay for that to be done and there is no better place for that research in the Leica-World than here.

Leica know that the Forum has a huge pool of enthusiastic people interested in their products and who are not afraid of “telling them like it is”. 

IIRC, the IR contamination of M8 files was first raised as a problem right here, for example. 

It’s a symbiotic relationship between the Forum and Leica that works very well, to the benefit of both parties, from what I can see. 

[Guest BlackBarn]

1 hour ago, LUF Admin said:

We are not 100% independent but we try to find the best balance in the interest of the community. In my opinion a good relationship to Leica is essential for the forum, this includes a lot of criticism but also providing a level playing field: Disclosing confidential content is not accepted

Thanks for your clear and open reply Andreas.  I wasn’t aware the Forum was an arm of Leica and you work as their representatives and us - at its root an information gathering source. I thought it was an independent forum….my mistake.

This now puts your decision regarding Steven totally in context and although he may not have broken any moral or legal obligation to Leica,  I can understand he might have upset some people and ended up as a victim by not playing the smoke and mirrors of their marketing game and so pushed into a corner. Who knows?

Although I fully accept your  ‘There is no place on earth…..’ statement but that isn’t the issue here.

I simply didn’t realize you have always - with your Leica connections  and employment the ability to address some of the serious concerns of some LUF members. Take the recents posts on the reported demise of the CL system. On one hand you ban a member because he didn’t play to Leica’s rules on a marketing issue and yet you do not apply any consideration to the concerns of members regarding Leica’s policy say of  the CL system……double standards?

I imagine all it would take is a phone call the the appropriate person in Leica and you could then post an announcement along the lines. ‘ I can assure you Leica is not abandoning the CL system and at this time I can make no further comment’. Job done! So instead of members relying on the flames of emergent rumors you could be the sensible channel for basic information. Imagine in October 21 …’Leica will not be announcing the M11 until early January up until that stage all information is covered by an NDA’…..and so on…SL3…S3….Q3. 

What Leica have created through their Marketing Approach and policy of not  keeping their customer base informed is the fertile ground for individuals like Steven to emerge.  It’s not Steven  and the likes of him which is the root problem but more the cartel mentality sometimes adopted by Leica.

I really enjoyed  this forum but I really really assumed it’s strength was in its independence and it’s hands length and respectful relationship with Leica. I didn’t realize the undertone was run by Leica for Leica and where Leica picked what it wanted but refused to address some of the serious concerns of its members.  Not because it couldn’t but because it decided not to. I find that inexcusable.

Well fun as it was can you please close down my membership and erase all contact details asap.

To all Members….you guys and girls have been brilliant - teachers as well as aspirational.

 

[Ouroboros]

Andreas should be congratulated for his patience and transparency and thanked for his explanation.   

If one good thing can be taken from this, it's the fact that Andreas is clearly willing to act pragmatically and fairly when applying the forum rules, despite the obvious provocation and the potential damage to his business caused by someone who chose to place his own ego and narcissism above any consideration for the forum owner.

Enough of him.

I think this thread should now be closed and everyone should move on.

 

[andybarton]

10 minutes ago, BlackBarn said:

I wasn’t aware the Forum was an arm of Leica

It hasn’t been since 2006.
 

That’s not what Andreas was saying and you have projected far too much in your post above. 

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[LUF Admin]

12 minutes ago, Guest said:

Well fun as it was can you please close down my membership and erase all contact details asap.

Always happy to help.

Sorry if I don't reply to this. Everyone can form his own opinion.

Andreas