Leica M11 & first lens?

[ianforber]

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I find myself in a similar position as the OP. Love my Q2 in every respect aside from the size of the lens, which makes it hard to slip into a coat pocket. So I was thinking about an M Leica, which would be my first, albeit not my first rangefinder (I used to have a Mamiya 7 - and have been on a quest for smaller cameras ever since!). M11 has me hooked, having fondled it at a store last week.

Funds won’t allow more than one lens, and I want a small lens. I often crop files significantly to focus on things like distant architectural details or emphasise patterns.  Does the M11 sensor really allow crops equivalent to, say 90-100mm when using a 35mm lens, or would I need to go for a 50mm? I have the Topaz Gigapixel plug-in but much prefer not to use it, good though it is

Grateful for advice. Ultimately, I can see myself adding the 90mm f4 Elmar to the kit, if that changes things. I’ve not yet decided whether to trade the Q2 but can’t ever see me going out carrying both - I’m trying to save weight, not add to the burden  

Thoughts?

Ian

[sebben]

50mm summicron, 35mm Summicron ASPH or 28mm Summicron. I think the APO lenses overrated and expensive even though I own the 50APO. If anyone wants to buy a silver 50APO let me know!

 

 

[ianforber]

@Artin and @sebben  thank you. 

Sounds like I need to go for a 35mm Summicron. I’ll let you know how it goes!

Ian

[BKimelb1]

50mm "sees" the way your eye does and has been my go to lens for over fifty years.  I agree apo lenses are overpriced and started with a 50 summicron which is great but shoot so much very low-light ended up buying a 50mm summilux and it is my go to lens except for portraits (90mm apo-Summicron: my favorite lens overall).  Also bought a 35mm summicron which is good for street work and some "artsy" portraits when you shoot up close.  I barely use it.  So,  IMHO net, net get a Summilux 50mm.  If you ever get a film Leica it also will give you that extra f/stop too. 

[M Journey]

13 hours ago, sebben said:

50mm summicron, 35mm Summicron ASPH or 28mm Summicron. I think the APO lenses overrated and expensive even though I own the 50APO. If anyone wants to buy a silver 50APO let me know!

 

 

I wouldn't say the apo lenses are overrated.  I think that they are overpriced for sure.  If they were the same price as a summilux lens it would be a better value.  It depends on the look you want for your photos.  Those that want corner to corner sharpness and a more smooth bokeh transition that doesn't swirl will love the APO over non apo lenses.  The price difference between the normal summicron vs the apo is pretty drastic though, and not worth it for most people for the difference in quality.

The great thing about the m11 is that you can crop the 35 apo to get close to a 50 focal length with a decent amount of detail, so you basically get a 35 apo at 60mpx and 45ish apo with whatever mpx that equates to.

I prefer to just carry one camera and one lens so I am willing to pay more for the improvement.  For most people I would recommend buying 3-4 Leica lenses over 1 apo, and up to 10 Voitlander lenses if you want to have a wider range of focal lengths or visual effects in your images.

Maybe the m12 will be 100mpx and will allow us to crop in such a way that a 24mm lens would give us 35mm, 50mm, and 85mm focal lengths with cropping.  Then a 24mm apo lens would be worth the premium, especially if they can get it to be a summilux apo.

 

 

[JonPB]

General advice on rangefinder shooting:

The fastest focusing method is to already be in focus. When shooting, I try to remain aware of what would be in focus -- both at the focus plane and due to depth of field -- at all times. That way, if I see a potential shot which is closer or further, and I have the time, I can focus on a nice crisp edge at about the same distance and then not worry about focus when it comes time to trip the shutter. Doing this also means that when I'm focusing, I'm focusing for its own purpose, and so I more quickly learn what good focus looks and feels like -- making focusing faster when it needs to happen ASAP. (If you're doing multiple things at the same time, you're less likely to learn from the experience about any of those things.)

The same applies to framing and exposure. Once you learn the field of view of your lens(es) and have a sense of manual exposure adjustments in a given lighting environment, then you'll keep those attributes habitually updated in your mind. When the right moment arises, you won't have anything to think about other than lift-and-click.

Shooting in full manual mode is demanding. Don't expect yourself to pick it all up from the start. But, like learning to drive a car or cook an omelette, the relatively brief period of frustration that accompanies learning yields a lifetime improved by having that skill ... and which never diminishes the benefits of lettting someone else drive or cook for you.

 

General advice on photography:

Spend more time looking for photos. Spend more time drilling skills (like focus, framing, and exposure). But, when shooting, be reluctant to take images; treat every shutter release as a precious thing, only to be expended when the situation truly deserves it.

If tempted to take several photos of the same thing, don't do it unless you know specifically what technical or aesthetic mistake you made the first time, or what makes this an entirely different image. If you can't name that mistake or that change, don't even chimp, just move along. You have to learn to trust yourself, and doing that requires making mistakes you'll learn from.

When reviewing your photos later, analyze each and every one critically; what do you like about it, what fails to satisfy, what did you do right and what would you do differently? You'll learn a ton about seeing and composing; you'll both avoid those technical errors in the future and be better at creating interesting images above and beyond technical merits.

Of course, if you're shooting professionally, do the reasonable thing and take the extra shots. But, in that case, shooting in your own time with the above discipline will itself be professional (and personal) development.

Expose yourself to photography, even if you don't enjoy what you're looking at, and assess it both emotionally and intellectually. Your own work will improve from the experience. Also, I find the reminder that other people are passionate about work that does absolutely nothing for me helps me stay true to my own motivations when it seems nobody else sees the value in my work. This is hardest to do on forums; start at a museum if you're lucky enough to have that option, or with books or curated collections of classic work (avoid "most liked images" pages). 

When asked to give criticism, start by complimenting the things you like, and probably stop there, too. If you find it difficult to find things to like in other people's photography, you're probably missing things worth liking in both your work and your opportunities -- so this isn't just polite, it is a skill worth dedicated practice.

Know this in your heart: most beautiful scenes and interesting subjects make for lousy photographs; most beautiful and interesting photographs are captures of what, at that time and place, looked to be perfectly ordinary. Allow yourself to enjoy the splendor of the world around you while you're there, in the moment -- without feeling the compulsion to hoard away for the future. Take all the snapshots you want, and indeed the snapshot is my preferred form, but the taking and viewing creates something different from what was there, so learn to identify those things that will improve with this process and those which call for putting the camera down and simply admiring that which is.

Discipline merits relief. If you struggle to take fewer shots, give yourself some time -- a day, a minute, whatever seems appropriate -- to snap away without restraint. If you're going full manual and finding yourself grumpy, pick up a full-auto camera and forget those concerns for a while. If you want to take a photo but know it'd turn out "wrong" because it violates some "rule," follow that instinct and then see what happens. Then, compare the experiences, keep what works, and continue working to strengthen those skills that serve you best.

[Fetchmycamera]

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Thank you so much for this thread. I too am waiting for my M11 and coming from Q will need an M lens.   My purse is waiting to be emptied with the M11 so definitely going "gently used" at this point for sure...

With Q being 28m, certainly thinking 50 or maybe 75 if I can find. Will consider 35's too....Your suggestions about size of the lens and rendering are all really valuable. Much appreciated. Now, to just find that "one".

Coming from Sony, never wanted to be Leica broke but it is fairly impossible not to just love. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Fetchmycamera

[Guest]

If you’re new to M photography I’d suggest a 35 or 50 Summicron, latest generation, used in mint or mint minus condition.  Some can be found with a balance remaining on the original warranty.  Longer focal lengths and faster lenses are more difficult to use thru optical viewfinder.  Get your feet wet first with a classic focal length before you move on to other lenses. Leica GAS is never ending.

[MaticB]

You used Q2 for few years and you love it. In EVF (rangefinder equivalent on "M"), you compose what is "in" and what is "out" on your pictures very clearly, either for 28mm and all the crops, if you used them. I found particularly useful 35mm crop, either for its resolution (some 30 MP) and because of resemblance to the "M" rangefinder, mounted with 50mm lens. My suggestion for the beginning would be 50mm summilux. Namely, you already have excellent 35mm lens on Q2 (with wide variety of possible perspective correction in post processing) and with 50 summilux you get excellent 50mm equivalent for "M", with not much of a training to make perfect composition either. Later on you can always add 35mm lens, but be aware, you will need some time to "see" nice composition. Bright-lines of 35mm lens are in range finder of "M" cameras close to range finder boundaries!

[Max EPR]

You might consider a clean used Summarit 2.4 or 2.5 35mm or 50mm to start. These are very sharp and most of the time under $2K. I currently have a M11 + 35mm FLE, 50 mm 1.4 ASPH and a 75mm Summarit 2.4. The Summarit is a really fantastic lens. In my experience, if sharpness is something important, the Summilux and Summarit  are very sharp and so much more affordable than the f/2 APO-SUMMICRON.

[fcracer]

On 1/17/2022 at 8:06 AM, thinkscientist said:

So I wasn’t expecting this situation but it’s a good one I guess. 

Have had a q2 for a few years ( love it ) and the curiosity and ambition to get a proper rangefinder got the better of me. I was going to buy the m10-r when it was released but then refrained.

However with the lighter body, USB c support and iPhone integration I couldn’t resist and ordered the m11. I did try one in a store on Thursday ( I love the handling ).  

I wasn’t expecting this…but lucky for me my M11 has been shipped already, I have no M mount lenses and now was wondering what would folks here use as a first lens. Should I just take the leap and order a summicron. Look for something second hand? Maybe an m mount 3rd like a voigtlander?
 

 

Congratulations on the M11! Here’s a post on lens recommendations for new M users. With a first M, I’d personally recommend a 35MM Summicron. I went for an FLE when I got my M10, but I should have gone for the Cron.

[fsprow]

On 1/23/2022 at 4:39 PM, ianforber said:

I find myself in a similar position as the OP. Love my Q2 in every respect aside from the size of the lens, which makes it hard to slip into a coat pocket. So I was thinking about an M Leica, which would be my first, albeit not my first rangefinder (I used to have a Mamiya 7 - and have been on a quest for smaller cameras ever since!). M11 has me hooked, having fondled it at a store last week.

Funds won’t allow more than one lens, and I want a small lens. I often crop files significantly to focus on things like distant architectural details or emphasise patterns.  Does the M11 sensor really allow crops equivalent to, say 90-100mm when using a 35mm lens, or would I need to go for a 50mm? I have the Topaz Gigapixel plug-in but much prefer not to use it, good though it is

Grateful for advice. Ultimately, I can see myself adding the 90mm f4 Elmar to the kit, if that changes things. I’ve not yet decided whether to trade the Q2 but can’t ever see me going out carrying both - I’m trying to save weight, not add to the burden  

Thoughts?

Ian

I just point out that I have the 90 mm Elmar f/4 but found that with the 50 mm Summilux on and selecting  the 1.8X digital crop/zoom the image quality was better when the camera was set at 60 megapixels. Obviously the perspective differs. 

[Jeff S]

On 3/15/2022 at 12:24 PM, fsprow said:

Obviously the perspective differs. 

Not unless you move or otherwise change the camera to subject distance.  Different than angle/field of view.

Jeff

[KenLW]

I used a Leica Q for many years and am also considering getting a M11 with first lens. Here are my thoughts:

1.  If you are keeping the Q2, you can opt for 50mm SUMMICRON. With that said, I plan to sell my Q so I would get 35mm SUMMICRON.

2. I have never used a Voigtlander but am tempted to try the 35mm or 50mm as a secondary lens because I don't want to care around a $10K camera + lens bundle on my trip. Also, Voigtlander would be cheap enough for me to not worry about breaking the lens. With that said, after spending close to $9k on a camera body, I do not want to cheap out and get the Voigtlander as my main lens. Also, I am not 100% sure if the Voigtlander can have the same sharpness as Leica lens with 60mp resolution.

3. One other thing to consider is that no matter what lens you buy, you will be able to use this for many years to come because you don't have to replace the lens again next time you replace your M camera. 

[ianforber]

I omitted to update on my earlier post, but I went through the thought process outlined by @KenLW  

I decided not to trade my Q2 in and took the financial hit of just getting the M11 and decided to get a 50mm Summicron with it as the Q2 would cover the wider angle(s). Very happy but the issue with the Q2 remains - the camera is fantastic but the lens is too bulky to fit in a coat pocket. So I find myself thinking about getting a CV 35mm Color Skopar for a smaller travel camera.

Of course, I’m still obsessed with using my new toy (the M11) so the Q2 hasn’t seen much use recently. So should I trade that in for the 90mm Elmar?  Choices, choices…

[SrMi]

12 minutes ago, ianforber said:

I omitted to update on my earlier post, but I went through the thought process outlined by @KenLW  

I decided not to trade my Q2 in and took the financial hit of just getting the M11 and decided to get a 50mm Summicron with it as the Q2 would cover the wider angle(s). Very happy but the issue with the Q2 remains - the camera is fantastic but the lens is too bulky to fit in a coat pocket. So I find myself thinking about getting a CV 35mm Color Skopar for a smaller travel camera.

Of course, I’m still obsessed with using my new toy (the M11) so the Q2 hasn’t seen much use recently. So should I trade that in for the 90mm Elmar?  Choices, choices…

The moment that you get rid of your Q2, you'll regret it :).

[KenLW]

On 7/17/2022 at 1:46 PM, ianforber said:

I omitted to update on my earlier post, but I went through the thought process outlined by @KenLW  

I decided not to trade my Q2 in and took the financial hit of just getting the M11 and decided to get a 50mm Summicron with it as the Q2 would cover the wider angle(s). Very happy but the issue with the Q2 remains - the camera is fantastic but the lens is too bulky to fit in a coat pocket. So I find myself thinking about getting a CV 35mm Color Skopar for a smaller travel camera.

Of course, I’m still obsessed with using my new toy (the M11) so the Q2 hasn’t seen much use recently. So should I trade that in for the 90mm Elmar?  Choices, choices…

I know cropping is not the same as using a real 90mm Elmar but because you have so many pixels with the M11, you can definitely crop and recover 90mm equivalent regions. 

For the Q2, you could let it sit in closet for a while or even lend it to a trusty friend which would sometimes help you decide whether or not you really need it. In my case, the Leica Q is the only camera my partner enjoy using so it was an easy decision for me not to sell it. We might upgrade it to a Q3 when it comes out.

This might be slightly off topic but I held off from impulse buying an M11 today after the Leica store told me they had one in stock. I hope my explanation is not too long: I started taking photos seriously with Canon 5D Mark II from a friend and a film Minolta x700. I have gone through several digital cameras since the Canon but I still use my Minolta for film photography. And I know for sure I would like to get a M system camera especially with the amazing Leica lens after my experience with Leica Q. Therefore, I am now looking for a M4-2 or M6 to use as my primary camera for film with one or two good Leica lens when traveling. With the M10 prices coming down, I can always pick up a M10 if I need to go digital and reuse those lens. For the price of M11, I am getting a M6 + one or two Leica lens + M10.

Of course, I feel like this kind of calculation never make sense in the first place so enjoy your purchase!

[ianforber]

2 hours ago, KenLW said:

I know cropping is not the same as using a real 90mm Elmar but because you have so many pixels with the M11, you can definitely crop and recover 90mm equivalent regions. 

For the Q2, you could let it sit in closet for a while or even lend it to a trusty friend which would sometimes help you decide whether or not you really need it. In my case, the Leica Q is the only camera my partner enjoy using so it was an easy decision for me not to sell it. We might upgrade it to a Q3 when it comes out.

This might be slightly off topic but I held off from impulse buying an M11 today after the Leica store told me they had one in stock. I hope my explanation is not too long: I started taking photos seriously with Canon 5D Mark II from a friend and a film Minolta x700. I have gone through several digital cameras since the Canon but I still use my Minolta for film photography. And I know for sure I would like to get a M system camera especially with the amazing Leica lens after my experience with Leica Q. Therefore, I am now looking for a M4-2 or M6 to use as my primary camera for film with one or two good Leica lens when traveling. With the M10 prices coming down, I can always pick up a M10 if I need to go digital and reuse those lens. For the price of M11, I am getting a M6 + one or two Leica lens + M10.

Of course, I feel like this kind of calculation never make sense in the first place so enjoy your purchase!

Sage advice. I too use my old Minolta X700 for 35mm film photography (1950s Zeiss Ikon folder for medium format). Too many cameras…