M11 Dynamic Range Specification

[MikeMyers]

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I'm very interested in dynamic range, as I often find myself photographing scenes where I struggle to avoid blown highlights.  My M10 is good at this, but my Nikon D750 is better, according to the dynamic range tests such as this one, along with my past attempts to capture high dynamic range images:

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Leica/M10

These tests allow for comparisons of different cameras.  As my friends point out, the Nikon D850 has much better dynamic range than my M10, which is why they feel I should upgrade to a D850.

 

If I understand this correctly, if instead of shooting at 60 megs, I use a smaller image size, multiple pixels combine to work together - as in 4 pixels combined to be one much larger pixel, which improves low light performance and dynamic range.

 

That brings me to my question - for the new M11, we have been told up to 15 stops in dynamic range.

 

My question here is "up to _____" doesn't say anything useful.  A value of even 9 would satisfy "up to 15".  Anybody here know of any tests performed similar to the 'dxomark' tests that provides an accurate number for the M11 ?   .....and I'm personally curious how that will compare with my M10.

 

I didn't use to think much about this, until I started photographing sunrises and sunsets, and blown highlights became such a concern.  The trick I was taught was to measure for the highlights, over expose by 1.7 stops, meaning the highlights will not be burnt out, and use that for my exposure.

I'll copy one comparison chart from DxOMark below:

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[Daedalus2000]

1 minute ago, MikeMyers said:

That brings me to my question - for the new M11, we have been told up to 15 stops in dynamic range.

My question here is "up to _____" doesn't say anything useful.  A value of even 9 would satisfy "up to 15".  Anybody here know of any tests performed similar to the 'dxomark' tests that provides an accurate number for the M11 ?   .....and I'm personally curious how that will compare with my M10.

 

 

Based on the Leica presentations that I attended,  "up to 15 stops" means that at iso 64 you will get 15 stops. I am not sure if that meant using the L-DNG or the M-DNG. 

I am not aware of any tests, but I am sure there will be a test available soon at photonstophotos.

 

[SrMi]

Blown highlights are not related to the dynamic range but exposure. Once one of the channels is blown, your image is 'compromised,' though you may not notice. Some cameras generate DNG files that allow better recovery of highlights in the post, i.e., the post-processor is better able to reconstruct the missing data.

D850 has better DR than M10-R when using ISOs below 120. However, I think M10-R has plenty of DR, and you should focus on optimal exposure to get the most out of your sensor.

[pgh]

46 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Blown highlights are not related to the dynamic range but exposure. Once one of the channels is blown, your image is 'compromised,' though you may not notice. Some cameras generate DNG files that allow better recovery of highlights in the post, i.e., the post-processor is better able to reconstruct the missing data.

In practical terms, they are related to DR when you're looking at a scene trying to decide if you want clipped shadows or highlights (sunrises/sunsets as OP is discussing would qualify). So this is relevant data. And something I'm also interested in. I didn't enjoy my Sony A7RII but the sensor handled these scenes a lot better when it came to making a print that displayed tonality on both ends of the histogram. To be honest, I could care less why that is or what tech brings that about - I just want better shadow and highlight recovery when dealing with a tricky scene. I wouldn't order an M11 unless the sensor is at least on par with that - but from what I've seen so far it seems to be, which is a relief. I still use the m10 as my main but the sensor was upon release and continues to be the main shortcoming of that camera - at least for how I work. 

[SrMi]

39 minutes ago, pgh said:

In practical terms, they are related to DR when you're looking at a scene trying to decide if you want clipped shadows or highlights (sunrises/sunsets as OP is discussing would qualify). So this is relevant data. And something I'm also interested in. I didn't enjoy my Sony A7RII but the sensor handled these scenes a lot better when it came to making a print that displayed tonality on both ends of the histogram. To be honest, I could care less why that is or what tech brings that about - I just want better shadow and highlight recovery when dealing with a tricky scene. I wouldn't order an M11 unless the sensor is at least on par with that - but from what I've seen so far it seems to be, which is a relief. I still use the m10 as my main but the sensor was upon release and continues to be the main shortcoming of that camera - at least for how I work. 

Shadows do not clip, they just get noisier and noisier. Highlights clip 

[adan]

The deal with the "up to 15" is this.

At 60 Mpixels, the M11's DR is rated at 14 stops. Period.

But the M11 offers the option of taking pictures (including .DNGs) resampled or "pixel binned" in the camera, down to 36 or 18 Mpixels.

With the down-sampled (not cropped) 18Mpixel M11 files, the DR supposedly CAN reach "up to" about 15 stops.

Therefore the careful wording - IF you shoot in the 18-Mpixel reduced-raw (or jpg) mode, you can get "up to" 15 stops of DR. But don't expect that DR if you shoot at one of the higher resolutions (36 or 60).

From Imaging Resource: https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/leica-m11/leica-m11A.HTM

Quote

Each image resolution uses the full image sensor, so by downscaling images (pixel binning), you can achieve more dynamic range – Leica says about an additional stop beyond the 14 stops promised at 60MP – and lower visible noise. Leica says that the 36MP resolution delivers the best balance of resolution and noise, although obviously, it's up to the user to decide what works best for them.

The schematic below shows how this works:

A hypothetical section of a full (and somewhat "noisy") 60-Mpixel M11 image is on top - and below it is the same area downsampled by a linear 45% to represent the same area in an 18-Mpixel .DNG.

At the bottom is the downsampled "18-Mixel" simulation upsampled again to the original dimensions, like looking at it at 181% pixel view.

Notice that the black side of the gradient is a bit "blacker" at 18 Mpixels (either version), because the noisy speckles have been averaged or "binned" with neighboring black pixels and are less distinct. Thus the "noise floor" has been dissipated enough to get a measurable 15 stops of DR at 18 Mixel output.

But only at 18 Mpixel output. So Leica has to say "up to," not "always," 15 stops DR. It depends on how the photographer uses the camera.

Obviously, it is a trade-off - less fine detail (resolution) for slightly greater effective DR.

What's the "noise floor" and why does it affect the technical measurement of DR?

https://blog.prosig.com/2008/04/14/what-is-db-noise-floor-dynamic-range/

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Edited January 16, 2022 by adan

[Jeff S]

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4 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

I'm very interested in dynamic range, as I often find myself photographing scenes where I struggle to avoid blown highlights.

So, you're interested in both dynamic range and exposure latitude, separate but related issues.  Following is one of many discussions on the topic...

https://cinematography.com/:~:text=Generally speaking, dynamic range refers to the entire,latitude tends to be narrower than dynamic range.

Jeff

[Herr Barnyard]

15 minutes ago, adan said:

The deal with the "up to 15" is this.

At 60 Mpixels, the M11's DR is rated at 14 stops. Period.

But the M11 offers the option of taking pictures (including .DNGs) resampled or "pixel binned" in the camera, down to 36 or 18 Mpixels.

With the down-sampled (not cropped) 18Mpixel M11 files, the DR supposedly CAN reach "up to" about 15 stops.

Therefore the careful wording - IF you shoot in the 18-Mpixel reduced-raw (or jpg) mode, you can get "up to" 15 stops of DR. But don't expect that DR if you shoot at one of the higher resolutions (36 or 60).

From Imaging Resource: https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/leica-m11/leica-m11A.HTM

The schematic below shows how this works:

A hypothetical section of a full (and somewhat "noisy") 60-Mpixel M11 image is on top - and below it is the same area downsampled by a linear 45% to represent the same area in an 18-Mpixel .DNG.

At the bottom is the downsampled "18-Mixel" simulation upsampled again to the original dimensions, like looking at it at 181% pixel view.

Notice that the black side of the gradient is a bit "blacker" at 18 Mpixels (either version), because the noisy speckles have been averaged or "binned" with neighboring black pixels and are less distinct. Thus the "noise floor" has been dissipated enough to get a measurable 15 stops of DR at 18 Mixel output.

But only at 18 Mpixel output. So Leica has to say "up to," not "always," 15 stops DR. It depends on how the photographer uses the camera.

Obviously, it is a trade-off - less fine detail (resolution) for slightly greater effective DR.

What's the "noise floor" and why does it affect the technical measurement of DR?

https://blog.prosig.com/2008/04/14/what-is-db-noise-floor-dynamic-range/

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

links not working? i keep clicking all the underlines but they not functioning 

[frame-it]

2 minutes ago, Herr Barnyard said:

links not working? i keep clicking all the underlines but they not functioning 

the red text = links

 

[Herr Barnyard]

39 minutes ago, frame-it said:

the red text = links

 

those are the ones that don't work  .. all the rest do now thanks for fixing them 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Herr Barnyard

[MikeMyers]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

Blown highlights are not related to the dynamic range but exposure. Once one of the channels is blown, your image is 'compromised,' though you may not notice. Some cameras generate DNG files that allow better recovery of highlights in the post, i.e., the post-processor is better able to reconstruct the missing data.

Thanks to all of. you - I think I have a better understanding of this now.  The practical advice I was given (for my D750 and M10) was to meter for the brightest part of the image using spot metering, then over-expose by 1.7 stops, and take the photo.  The highlights will not be blown out.  Exposure and dynamic range work together with each other, even if the definitions don't imply that.

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

Shadows do not clip, they just get noisier and noisier. Highlights clip 

Using DxO PhotoLab 5 as my editor, I can click on two tools that indicate "blown" highlights or "blown" shadows.  I always thought this meant they were so bright, or so dark, that there could be no detail there.  From what you wrote, maybe I'm using the wrong words, but if possible I try to avoid this - and it's not always possible.  Maybe "blown" is not the most appropriate word?

The people I usually work with enjoy making huge prints from their images, something I don't.  For me, 24 megapixels is more than enough.  Both my D750 and my M10 have 24 megapixels, but according to DxOmark, the Nikon has more dynamic range.  On the other hand, I think my better Leica lenses are "better" than my better Nikon lenses.  I haven't considered this an issue, but my friends are always examining their images at 100%.  The end result is it's easier for me to shoot these images properly on my D750 than on my M10.  This bothered me, but I (grudgingly) went along.  The M10 metering system wasn't designed for this - although Live View seemed to help considerably.  Having the histogram was very useful, which is why I mostly left the Visoflex on my M10.

39 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

So, you're interested in both dynamic range and exposure latitude, separate but related issues.  Following is one of many discussions on the topic...

https://cinematography.com/:~:text=Generally speaking, dynamic range refers to the entire,latitude tends to be narrower than dynamic range.

Thanks, Jeff, but when I click on this I get an error message "Page not found".  It sounds like useful reading.  Can you please update?

 

Perhaps Leica should not say "Up to 15 stops dynamic range", but should instead say "15 stops dynamic range with 18 megapixel setting" which apparently is the clear way to give the information.  As things are now, it sounds "misleading", which is what led to my posting this thread.  I guess DxOmark will need to create separate graphs for each of the three resolutions.

 

I should add one last thing - when I'm trying to measure the highlights on my D750, I put it in spot metering mode.  On the M10, measuring light reflected off the shutter blades, I don't think this can be measured accurately.  In Live View, I got better information.  On the M11, I should be able to use real spot metering, which might help me get better results using the trick I posted, over-exposing by 1.7 stops. This is yet another nudge for me up upgrade to the M11.  

[Chaemono]

From what I’ve seen so far, DR and tonal range of the M11 at ISO 64 is amazing. The real contenders for the top spot in FF in this respect are now Z7/II (D850) and the M11. For exposure latitude I suspect the α7R IV will be a strong contender. 

[darylgo]

Grad ND filters are your friend with sunrises and the like, there's just no way around this with a single exposure. 

54 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

 This is yet another nudge for me up upgrade to the M11.  

Use of the 1- histogram or 2- exposure bracketing will give you the same results as the metering results of one camera vs. another or one method vs. another.  

IRL I am not so sure these dynamic range differences of the sensors  matter as much as field technique, post processing and improvements in software.  

[MikeMyers]

Adding a filter is one way to make things better, but then I risk reflections from the additional glass surface being in front of the lens, while I'm shooting almost right into the sun.  I've got too many cameras, and too many lenses, and if I start buying filters for many of them, that's going to add up to an expensive order, along with the reflections I'll expect.

This is the photo I was taking yesterday, with my D750 as reviewed the curves for my Nikon vs M10 internal debate.  I'll also post the curves, that now have me using the D750 when I want photos like this...  From what I've read here, the smaller size photo from the M11 will likely be better than my other choices from cameras I already own.

You can't tell from the photo, but the reflection of the sun in the water was so bright, I had trouble even looking at it without squinting my eyes, and all that background detail just looked "black" until I brought it out in PhotoLab.  After taking the photo, it took a few minutes for my eyes to adjust to my indoor room lighting again.

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Edited January 16, 2022 by MikeMyers
typo.

[MikeMyers]

4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

From what I’ve seen so far, DR and tonal range of the M11 at ISO 64 is amazing. The real contenders for the top spot in FF in this respect are now Z7/II (D850) and the M11. For exposure latitude I suspect the α7R IV will be a strong contender. 

Well, I know nothing about Sony cameras, and I would have to buy a whole system, not just the body.  The D850 is better than my D750, but they are close.  My M10 is obviously a step behind these newer cameras, and I have a strong negative desire about the Z7 camera - I very much do NOT want to buy it, and if I did, I'd need all the  new lenses, and if I was going to buy it anyway, I might as well spend $5K for the Z9.  But, if I'm going to do any of the above, why buy something I don't want, when for twice the $$ I can buy the M11 which I do want.  It will probably be half a year before an M11 becomes available anyway, so I have time to figure out a plan to buy one, if I actually make the decision to do so.  I've grown very attached to my M10 as things are now, and it will be every bit as good a month from now, as it was a month ago before all the M11 excitement.

[Chaemono]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb MikeMyers:

Well, I know nothing about Sony cameras, and I would have to buy a whole system, not just the body.  The D850 is better than my D750, but they are close.  My M10 is obviously a step behind these newer cameras, and I have a strong negative desire about the Z7 camera - I very much do NOT want to buy it, and if I did, I'd need all the  new lenses, and if I was going to buy it anyway, I might as well spend $5K for the Z9.  But, if I'm going to do any of the above, why buy something I don't want, when for twice the $$ I can buy the M11 which I do want.  It will probably be half a year before an M11 becomes available anyway, so I have time to figure out a plan to buy one, if I actually make the decision to do so.  I've grown very attached to my M10 as things are now, and it will be every bit as good a month from now, as it was a month ago before all the M11 excitement.

AFAIC you can buy whatever you want. 

[Robert Blanko]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb SrMi:

Shadows do not clip, they just get noisier and noisier. Highlights clip 

Even though there is no clipping in the strict sense, I think he wanted to say that there may be parts in the image where you can not distinguish anymore within the given bit resolution whether the original was dark gray or a little bit darker gray, i.e., there will not be any information in said parts anymore, just noise.

[Jeff S]

7 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Thanks, Jeff, but when I click on this I get an error message "Page not found".  It sounds like useful reading.  Can you please update?

 

 

Just search dynamic range vs exposure latitude and you will find a host of articles and discussions.  Here’s a different discussion than the one with the broken link, albeit more related to video…

https://www.xdcam-user.com/2013/11/whats-the-difference-between-latitude-and-dynamic-range/

The camera system has measured dynamic range, but whether your highlights are blown also depends on how YOU expose the scene, which further requires an understanding of your exposure latitude.

Jeff

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Hallo,

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[SrMi]

3 hours ago, Robert Blanko said:

Even though there is no clipping in the strict sense, I think he wanted to say that there may be parts in the image where you can not distinguish anymore within the given bit resolution whether the original was dark gray or a little bit darker gray, i.e., there will not be any information in said parts anymore, just noise.

Fair enough.

The 'moment' where detail is overwhelmed by the noise (low SNR) is determined by the dynamic range, but it is not sudden like highlight clipping. Highlight clipping is independent of DR.

[MikeMyers]

I think you are saying is that:

• For highlights, when the signals are overwhelmed by light, there is no way to measure any additional light beyond that point = white.
• For shadows, when the signals can't detect any additional lack of light = black (dark).

Therefore, to get more dynamic range, we need to go beyond one or the other, or both of those limits.  And I guess it makes sense, that with improved technology we need to recover more information beyond the current limits.

 

Maybe one of you can tell me if I'm being reasonable in thinking that the sensor on the M10 is "good enough" for today's photography?  Will you be able to look at two photos, side by side, and accurately be able to say which model M they were taken with?  I suspect not.  ...and for a challenge, can one of you who owns both an M10 and a M11 take a photo of some scene, with each camera, using the same file size, and lens, and challenge the rest of us to pick which camera it came from?