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M11 Dynamic Range Specification


MikeMyers
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4 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Is the following reasonable?

One wants too use the aperture setting that's appropriate for the scene being photographed, and...

One wants to use an adequate shutter speed to avoid undesired blur, from camera movement or subject movement.

That leaves ISO, and we then need to select an ISO so the image is exposed properly, which would imply auto-ISO allows us to select the more important settings for the scene being photographed, and to let the camera then give us an acceptable ISO.

 

I think I learned this from various things @jaapvwrote about two yers ago, and thtat's what I did until the people in the DxO PhotoLab forum convinced me that I need to be in control of ISO such that the most important things in the image are exposed properly.  After re-considering here, I  now agree with @jonoslackthat it's probably a good thing for me to use auto-iso for a default setting, but to pay attention to what the camera is doing.

  • Aperture to get proper depth of field
  • Shutter to stop motion or prevent camera blur from movement, and
  • ISO to select an appropriate/adequate exposure

......and for me to be aware of all three settings, in case I need to over-ride what the camera is doing.  Shutter speed can be faster, without causing any undesirable side effects.  ISO on the M8.2 that I was using back then should not exceed 640, leaving aperture as the most critical.

My M10 made life easier for me than my M8.2, as it had a wider range to select from, and the M11 seems to have done that again, giving me even more range than the M10 for "acceptable settings".  ......and while I've got all the time in the world sometimes to select or review settings, I think I need the auto-ISO so if I suddenly need to take a photo, with no time to evaluate, the camera will assist me in getting a reasonable exposure, even if it isn't the optimum exposure.

 

Sorry for rambling, I'm just thinking out loud, reviewing all the advice I've been given, and what worked best, and accepting that I don't always change my camera settings manually, as I ought to, as I'm walking around with the camera, to "be ready for a surprise shot".

Hi there Mike

If you get the Auto ISO settings right, then you don't need to use the shutter speed setting (leave it on A)

I do this by setting the Shutter Speed Limit (as you say, depends on the situation, but too fast isn't usually an issue)

   as I said above I normally set it to 1/(2f) s (ie twice the focal length) but if I need to stop motion I'll set it to 1/(4f)s (ie 4 times the focal length)

Setting it this way is safer because if you forget and change your 28mm lens for a 90mm it won't screw up.

Then set the maximum ISO you're prepared to accept.

If you set it like this - and have the shutter speed dial on A, then you only need to think about Aperture and Exposure compensation.

I hope this helps

best

Jono

 

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jonoslack

HI There Mike I thought I would chip in here because I think you're making your life very complicated! As Srdjan said, blown highlights is not directly related to dynamic range - it's to do with overexposure. Your idea of metering off the brightest part of the frame and then increasing the exposure by 1.7 stops would probably work with the M10-R, but I would have thought it was really fraught with the M10 - which is not so good at highlights - have you seen this article: https://www.sl

jonoslack

Hi there @charlesphoto99 @Jeff S Such good comments - I'll just add something which was the result of a great deal of consideration, because I don't think that conscious intent is a very good way to do photography . . . or post processing come to that. @MikeMyers I suspect that you are overthinking (and making yourself unhappy about it!)   Serendipity - Photography and Luck   This is something I’ve thought long and hard about. Craig Semetko does a great talk called

SrMi

Blown highlights are not related to the dynamic range but exposure. Once one of the channels is blown, your image is 'compromised,' though you may not notice. Some cameras generate DNG files that allow better recovery of highlights in the post, i.e., the post-processor is better able to reconstruct the missing data. D850 has better DR than M10-R when using ISOs below 120. However, I think M10-R has plenty of DR, and you should focus on optimal exposure to get the most out of your sensor.

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8 hours ago, hmathias said:

There are no mistakes in photography not if the images work for you. 

I'm not that lucky.  If I do something wrong, 99% of the time it's a wasted image.  From my point of view, we make our own "luck".  To me, there are an infinite number of "mistakes" to avoid, which we can usually do if we're careful and thinking about it, and once we (and our cameras) are all set, we are free to think about composition and timing.  

Shooting sports photography with a Nikon D3, it was very easy to capture hundreds of technically acceptable images, but if I was lucky, one in twenty might have a good combination of composition, timing, expression, an other things outside of what I was concentrating on, to get an image acceptable for submission.  

We make our own "luck", and try to avoid "mistakes", but every so often, that "mistake" creates an image that works.  .....but for every time this happens, dozens, or hundreds, of "mistakes" get deleted, and if we try to avoid mistakes, we're likely to get more "keepers".    ......which is what I think, but I'm rarely in a position to tell someone else what to do.  If you make enough mistakes (perhaps in driving, perhaps in racing) eventually one of them is going to trip you up in a bad way.  In photography, there is an easy "fix", the DEL key on the keyboard, but how about the shot I might have captured had I not made that mistake?

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5 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

f you get the Auto ISO settings right, then you don't need to use the shutter speed setting (leave it on A)

I do this by setting the Shutter Speed Limit (as you say, depends on the situation, but too fast isn't usually an issue)

   as I said above I normally set it to 1/(2f) s (ie twice the focal length) but if I need to stop motion I'll set it to 1/(4f)s (ie 4 times the focal length)

Setting it this way is safer because if you forget and change your 28mm lens for a 90mm it won't screw up.

Then set the maximum ISO you're prepared to accept.

If you set it like this - and have the shutter speed dial on A, then you only need to think about Aperture and Exposure compensation.

I hope this helps

Not sure what I think yet, but the way you've described it, it sounds very logical.  I'll set my M10 accordingly, and see how it works out.  Yes, it does sound "safe", and I'll have blocked out the settings that I would not accept.

Thank you.  For a "walking around with camera setting" it sounds like it safe, and easier, and might leave me free to think more about the most important aspects of the photo being taken.   Hmmm.....

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5 hours ago, jonoslack said:

If you get the Auto ISO settings right, then you don't need to use the shutter speed setting (leave it on A)

If you set it like this - and have the shutter speed dial on A, then you only need to think about Aperture and Exposure compensation.

Doing this now - I'll see how it works out.  ISO wheel is set to "A", and shutter speed dial is also set to "A", so the camera will want me to select an aperture, and it will then select an ISO speed and a shutter speed.  Since my hands are not as steady as they used to be, I set the minimum shutter speed to 1/250th, so all my shots will be at this shutter speed, or higher.   I set M-ISO to 10,000 meaning the M on the ISO dial will be 10,000 ISO, but that's irrelevant, as long as I'm shooting in auto-ISO.  

What is your advice for the M10 for "Maximum Aiuto ISO"?  Right now I've got it at 20,000, but I don't understand how this works - presumably if I'm in a dark room, and the camera is set up as described, and if the room gets darker, the camera will select a longer shutter speed, UNTIL that speed gets down to 1/250th which I've set.  As the room gets darker and darker, the ISO will start to increase, until it reaches 20000 ISO.  What happens after that?  Does an "I surrender" flag pop up out of the camera, telling me it's run out of adjustment?  🙂   I'm curious as to what setting you use.

 

It's logical to me that long before the camera reaches 20000 ISO, I ought to have opened up the aperture.  I guess I just need to pay attention to this for a while, and see how it works out.  

This will certainly make a difference in how I use the camera - currently, setting the exposure for me has been all manual, and I had to think about it every time.  Doing it your way seems too easy, as in I'm not doing my job.   Sorry, I'm just blabbering on, I need to try it for the next week, and see how it's working out for me.  I guess that's a good thing - I need to concentrate on focus and composition and timing, none of which the camera can do.    Again, thank you!

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4 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Doing this now - I'll see how it works out.  ISO wheel is set to "A", and shutter speed dial is also set to "A", so the camera will want me to select an aperture, and it will then select an ISO speed and a shutter speed.  Since my hands are not as steady as they used to be, I set the minimum shutter speed to 1/250th, so all my shots will be at this shutter speed, or higher.   I set M-ISO to 10,000 meaning the M on the ISO dial will be 10,000 ISO, but that's irrelevant, as long as I'm shooting in auto-ISO.  

What is your advice for the M10 for "Maximum Aiuto ISO"?  Right now I've got it at 20,000, but I don't understand how this works - presumably if I'm in a dark room, and the camera is set up as described, and if the room gets darker, the camera will select a longer shutter speed, UNTIL that speed gets down to 1/250th which I've set.  As the room gets darker and darker, the ISO will start to increase, until it reaches 20000 ISO.  What happens after that?  Does an "I surrender" flag pop up out of the camera, telling me it's run out of adjustment?  🙂   I'm curious as to what setting you use.

 

It's logical to me that long before the camera reaches 20000 ISO, I ought to have opened up the aperture.  I guess I just need to pay attention to this for a while, and see how it works out.  

This will certainly make a difference in how I use the camera - currently, setting the exposure for me has been all manual, and I had to think about it every time.  Doing it your way seems too easy, as in I'm not doing my job.   Sorry, I'm just blabbering on, I need to try it for the next week, and see how it's working out for me.  I guess that's a good thing - I need to concentrate on focus and composition and timing, none of which the camera can do.    Again, thank you!

I would set a minimum shutter speed depending on the focal length, not on an absolute value. Otherwise, you are wasting your camera's DR without gaining anything, and you may have blur with longer lenses. Most people are happy with (1/2f)s. 

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5 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I would set a minimum shutter speed depending on the focal length, not on an absolute value. Otherwise, you are wasting your camera's DR without gaining anything, and you may have blur with longer lenses. Most people are happy with (1/2f)s. 

I know what you mean, and agree, but since none of my lenses are "6-bit coded", my camera has no idea of what lens is mounted.  I can't think of any way around that - if I've got to select things manually, I might as well just select the minimum shutter speed.  If you have a way to get around all that, I'm all ears!   🙂

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1 minute ago, MikeMyers said:

I know what you mean, and agree, but since none of my lenses are "6-bit coded", my camera has no idea of what lens is mounted.  I can't think of any way around that - if I've got to select things manually, I might as well just select the minimum shutter speed.  If you have a way to get around all that, I'm all ears!   🙂

There are corrections that need to be applied with most lenses, but the camera needs to know about them. Can you select a similar lens in the camera menu?

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I have quite a few 1960's and 1970's lenses, four Voightlander lenses, and my 7Artisans (which is for my M8).  

None of my lenses are marked, so yes, I can select a similar lens manually, but if I'm going to do that, why not just select the shutter speed?   It seems better to me if the camera has no idea of which lens is mounted, than if it has an incorrect but similar lens listed.  If I win the lottery, which I don't even play, I would buy a set of new Leica coded lenses, but then I'd be reading here from people who prefer the old lenses.   

My wish list - Leica could allow me to manually enter my dozen or so lenses, and select the one I'm using when I mount it.  Then my EXIF data would be correct, too.

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19 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

I have quite a few 1960's and 1970's lenses, four Voightlander lenses, and my 7Artisans (which is for my M8).  

None of my lenses are marked, so yes, I can select a similar lens manually, but if I'm going to do that, why not just select the shutter speed?   It seems better to me if the camera has no idea of which lens is mounted, than if it has an incorrect but similar lens listed.  If I win the lottery, which I don't even play, I would buy a set of new Leica coded lenses, but then I'd be reading here from people who prefer the old lenses.   

My wish list - Leica could allow me to manually enter my dozen or so lenses, and select the one I'm using when I mount it.  Then my EXIF data would be correct, too.

Selecting a similar lens manually (if possible) has following advantages:

- EXIF focal length is correct

- Proper lens corrections can be applied in camera

- Auto-ISO focal length rules work

You should contact other owners of your lenses to check which existing in-camera profile works best. Sean Reid has reviewed many CV lenses, and has suggestions and evaluation.

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11 hours ago, jonoslack said:

If you set it like this - and have the shutter speed dial on A, then you only need to think about Aperture and Exposure compensation.

I hope this helps

Maybe my final post in this thread.  I did what you suggested, set the ISO dial to (A), set the shutter speed dial to (A), selected a large f/stop, and went on a short walkabout, taking photos with my M10 and the f/2 Voigtlander.  I felt awkward, because all the things I usually do, weren't needed.  I constantly thought I was forgetting to do something.  The only two things I did were to set the aperture to almost wide open, for minimal depth of field, and concentrate on composition, and I took two shots like what I usually do, and a third shot from an unusual angle - because my mind was free of the "trivia" it discovered a different way of seeing the photo.

In my opinion, and I'm not any kind of expert, the camera not only selected perfect settings, according to the histogram it nailed the exposure better than what I do on my own.   It also was much more enjoyable, as instead of worrying about details, almost my entire concentration could be devoted to the photograph.  I'll copy the photo below - not sure if others will like it, or hate it, or tell me things I could have done better, (which I would gladly accept if anyone wishes to do so).  It put a smile on my face - I've photographed this scene several times before, but today's version is better.  EXIF data should still be there, and it was processed in DxO PhotoLab 5.  

Thank you very much for your advice, and suggestions, and explanations.  It transformed my M10 into a "new camera", and more importantly, it improved my way of using my M10.

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On 1/18/2022 at 1:53 PM, MikeMyers said:

In photography, there is an easy "fix", the DEL key on the keyboard, but how about the shot I might have captured had I not made that mistake?

1) it doesn’t matter if you use the DEL on your keyboard or the DEL in your head - and don’t ever have someone tell you otherwise… taking a 100 images and deleting 99 is the same as skipping 99 chances to take a shot, and making that one shot; the only differences are convenience, size of the memory card, and shutter wear

2) if you don’t take a shot due to a mistake, you move on, learn how to avoid the mistake, and take more shots - unless it’s a paid job (and i honestly doubt a significant number of people here are buying Ms for paid jobs where a specific decisive moment affects the paycheck) there’s no love lost, there will be other chances and other shots, chalk that one up to experience :)

I’m probably relatively young compared to some here (i’m in my 40ish) but i’ve been actively in photography (including darkroom work) since year 10 of my life. If there’s one thing i’ve learned in those 30+ years, it’s that i’d go crazy within months if i bemoaned every mistake, every lost opportunity, every imperfection. That does not mean i don’t notice them or learn from them, it means i don’t let them affect me beyond that.

Edited by orcinus
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48 minutes ago, orcinus said:

1) it doesn’t matter if you use the DEL on your keyboard or the DEL in your head - and don’t ever have someone tell you otherwise… taking a 100 images and deleting 99 is the same as skipping 99 chances to take a shot, and making that one shot; the only differences are convenience, size of the memory card, and shutter wear

Much of my "working photography" when I covered international world championship radio control car races was to capture good photos of the race cars, the track, and the people.  This went on for perhaps a week, in the USA and overseas.  What you wrote sounds good here, but when I got back to my hotel room and had perhaps 700 images to go through, to submit the best 25 to the magazine, I would start after dinner and be working until 4am in my hotel room.  I quickly learned two things - first, erase all bad images immediately after taking (but this might mean missing a good shot while I wasn't paying attention), or be much more selective before pressing the shutter button - as in pretend I was shooting film.  

Deleting 99 shots takes a very long time, not for the actual deletion, but to make sure I had a better shot to cover for the ones I was removing.

Now, although I'm on my own, not submitting to an editor, if I take 100 shots with my M10, as soon as possible I ingest all 100 into a folder on my computer, and go through them quickly, deleting all the junk, the extras, the test shots, and anything that didn't work.  In a very short time, I'm down to 20 or so shots, which I leave in place until I get to see them in my editor.

I'm not saying what I do is "right", but it made life much easier for me, my editors loved it, they got the five W's for every shot I submitted - Who, What, When, Where, and Why.  Many years at https://www.sportsshooter.com taught me that - in fact, they wouldn't accept me as a member until I had submitted a series of proper images, along with a proper caption for every one of them.

Technically speaking, you are correct: "the only differences are convenience, size of the memory card, and shutter wear".  In my world, those were all insignificant, and the huge difference was in my time working with my images once I got back to my computer, especially if the images were taken on a deadline.

 

Something else I noticed yesterday - shooting photos my old way took a LOT more time, as I was constantly checking so many things for each image.  Following @jonoslack and his ideas freed up a LOT of time for me to spend on the image, rather than on the details.  And if I didn't like what I saw, I simply didn't take the image and tried finding a way to do it better.

 

How many people reading this thread take a trip, or a vacation, or whatever, and get home with a hundreds or thousands of images, an overwhelming number, and then start to spend forever in an image editor making them all perfect.  Is it fun, or do you feel overwhelmed?  Did you think "digital is free", so you shoot anything and everything?

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9 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Is it fun, or do you feel overwhelmed?

It is fun (to me at least).

But then, when i take thousands of images, i know exactly what they are and why i took them, and what i planned to do to them ahead of time. I don’t take random snapshots, that’s what a phone is for : )

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My guiding principles:

1) My picture-editing professor in grad school was an "old hand" from Chicago newspapers in the 50s-60s. One of his favorite comments was "Editing pictures is the most fun you can have with your clothes on!" So I've never found it a chore.

2) I watched the Apollo 11 Moon landing, and always recall that the very first thing Neil Armstrong did after giving his little speech about "one giant leap for Mankind" was to take "a contingency sample" of lunar soil. So that just in case the LEM sprang a leak, or a Moon Monster came out of a nearby crater, the crew could abort the mission and skeedaddle, and still have something to bring back, to justify the $$$billions spent on getting there.

https://www.alanbeangallery.com/ContingencySample-story.html

When I go to an event, I start shooting as soon as I'm in the door. They are probably weak pictures, and I will get better ones in a few minutes, but I want some kind of picture "in the bag" just in case something goes wrong. It's part of being a professional - bring back pictures, not excuses.

No competent editor will give you credit for pictures you didn't take. I can say that because I've been an AME/Graphics and a picture editor as well as photographer - and I didn't give my photographers any credit for the pictures they failed to bring back. ;) I want to see the out-takes, (all 99 of them, if needed) so that I know how well they worked the subject, and how they saw, and how hard they worked. And whether they got a better picture, but didn't notice it. And I do the same for myself - it is the only way to keep learning and improving.

3) I always shoot "scared." I assume that every picture I've already made on a "take" is junk in some way - and keep on looking for better ones. And I always find them. Complacency is the enemy of great photography. Or as my local newspaper today puts it on their masthead - "There is no hope for the satisfied man." ;)

That habit did develop early in my film era, when I did a remote project for a whole semester (3 months) with no darkroom available - I just had to keep the hundreds of exposed rolls in a box until I got back to a lab. Where it took me two weeks just to develop them all.

But I do the same thing with digital today. I assume that I am missing the peak moments, or misfocusing, or that the SD card will corrupt my best shots. And keep looking for more.

4) These days, my main events are alt-rock concerts at the gallery (with masked audience and social distancing). I apply principles 2 and 3 when shooting. Often get over 200 pix in an evening.

All M10, 135 Tele-Elmar.

The editing is multi-stage, over up to a few weeks.

Once the images are on the computer, I do a quick survey in an hour or so, and pick pictures that look interesting, and punch out a dozen medium-res jpegs that include all the bands, and ship those to the gallery's Music Council Chair the same night, so he can post them to social media, and drop copies to the bands themselves.

And then back up the take to two external drives.

Over the next few days, I will go back through the pictures, to see what else I like; which lenses worked; which angles worked. Self-education.

After a week, I will go through the pictures again, and triple-check the .DNGs that were never opened. Just in case I missed something on the previous two edits.

At the end of the month, I go through the take a last time, and trash the .DNGs that have missed three cuts (after a 4th confirming look).

The whole process will reduce the 200 or so originals to about 24-36 images ("one 35mm roll.")

Edited by adan
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On 1/18/2022 at 7:51 PM, MikeMyers said:

Maybe my final post in this thread.  I did what you suggested, set the ISO dial to (A), set the shutter speed dial to (A), selected a large f/stop, and went on a short walkabout, taking photos with my M10 and the f/2 Voigtlander.  I felt awkward, because all the things I usually do, weren't needed.  I constantly thought I was forgetting to do something.  The only two things I did were to set the aperture to almost wide open, for minimal depth of field, and concentrate on composition, and I took two shots like what I usually do, and a third shot from an unusual angle - because my mind was free of the "trivia" it discovered a different way of seeing the photo.

In my opinion, and I'm not any kind of expert, the camera not only selected perfect settings, according to the histogram it nailed the exposure better than what I do on my own.   It also was much more enjoyable, as instead of worrying about details, almost my entire concentration could be devoted to the photograph.  I'll copy the photo below - not sure if others will like it, or hate it, or tell me things I could have done better, (which I would gladly accept if anyone wishes to do so).  It put a smile on my face - I've photographed this scene several times before, but today's version is better.  EXIF data should still be there, and it was processed in DxO PhotoLab 5.  

Thank you very much for your advice, and suggestions, and explanations.  It transformed my M10 into a "new camera", and more importantly, it improved my way of using my M10.

The guys (David and Josh) you apparently see at Leica Miami on a regular basis have been advocating Jono’s approach… aperture priority, auto-ISO, min/max ISO range, etc… for years, and have discussed it on multiple episodes of their popular Camera Talk YouTube series.  Maybe you could additionally benefit from attending one of their workshops for some other useful and time saving tips.  I think you’ve written that you’re a long time M user, not a novice.  But it’s never too late to learn new things. The sooner the gear becomes second nature, the better.

Jeff

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10 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The guys (David and Josh) you apparently see at Leica Miami on a regular basis have been advocating Jono’s approach….....aperture priority, auto-ISO, min/max ISO range, etc… for years, .............Maybe you could additionally benefit from attending one of their workshops ...........I think you’ve written that you’re a long time M user, not a novice. ...........The sooner the gear becomes second nature, the better.

Well, I've never (yet) been to Leica Miami, and don't know these guys.  I do play to visit, if for no other reason than to check out the M11.

I used to use something like Jono's approach, when I did sports photography, but found I got better results in high dynamic range landscape photography by going slowly and methodically, using whatever camera I had with me as if it were a view camera.  I did NOT think that was the best approach to my "walkabout" photography, and Jono's suggestions worked much better for me.  It helped that I was using the M10 - with my Nikons, they "took over" and I got the image the camera wanted, not necessarily the image I wanted.  The Leica almost has a connection with my brain, and for whatever reason(s), I like/love those images more.  Probably sounds stupid of me to say this, but it's always been this way, ever since my first M2.

I'm not sure if I qualify as a long-time M user, but I've been using them on and off since the late 1960's.  There wasn't any "hype" back then - it was just another camera, and the upcoming SLR cameras got all the hype.  I bought one of them too, but I never gave up on my M cameras.

As for the gear becoming second nature, it usually feels that way, unless I'm being ultra-careful as if I was using a LF camera, where everything is slow and methodical.  With the M, used the way I try to use it, the camera "gets out of the way", and the connection is between my brain and what I'm shooting.  The M is just a tool - nothing exotic, or special, or coveted, or imposing, or powerful, and all the technical gobbledygook which I understand is important, vanishes.  The M does this better than my Nikon DSLR cameras.  

 

All of the above brings me back to me, and what I use, and what I do, and I honestly think I will just the same with the M10, or the M11.  Never had an M9, so I don't know much about that. The M8 is similar, but there are/were several things holding me back, and those restraints do affect what I am likely to try to do - as in not go above ISO 640.  Just technical limitations, and I think I shoot my M10 now pretty much the way I shot my M film cameras.  This also made my photography more rewarding than when I used my reflex cameras.  I doubt anyone is going to even know what I mean, but the sensations and emotions are real, even if I can't properly put them into words.

 

It's a shame that Leica has priced itself so high that it's out of reach for average photographer.  It's also a shame that all the rangefinder competition has dropped out, leaving only Leica, and at the same time, photography itself seems to be going away, being replaced by mobile phones for most people.  I'm glad that film is making a return, as that may allow others to get involved in what I call "real photography" using affordable (to them) camera gear.

 

Gee, I didn't intend to write so much here.  Sorry.  

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On 1/18/2022 at 12:49 PM, jonoslack said:

Hi there Mike

If you get the Auto ISO settings right, then you don't need to use the shutter speed setting (leave it on A)

I do this by setting the Shutter Speed Limit (as you say, depends on the situation, but too fast isn't usually an issue)

   as I said above I normally set it to 1/(2f) s (ie twice the focal length) but if I need to stop motion I'll set it to 1/(4f)s (ie 4 times the focal length)

Setting it this way is safer because if you forget and change your 28mm lens for a 90mm it won't screw up.

Then set the maximum ISO you're prepared to accept.

If you set it like this - and have the shutter speed dial on A, then you only need to think about Aperture and Exposure compensation.

I hope this helps

best

Jono

 

Just to add on Jono’s brillant summary :) , I have set the function button near the shutter button on the M11 to the exposure type (spot, centred or multi field), so that it is very easy and quick to switch the exposure metering based on what you are photographing (in particular so when using the visoflex).

Edited by Hanno
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Maybe I misunderstood.  My take on Jono's advice was to allow the camera to do "more", leaving me free to concentrate on composition and timing.   Unless it's a special situation, why would I want to start debating which type of metering to use?

Maybe this is with the Visoflex, so you want more control - as I might also want in that case, but I thought Jono wanted to separate what I needed do do, from what the camera could do on its own.  

On my M10, the "wheel" is set to exposure compensation, for when/if I need it, and the push button on the front is set to enlarge the image on my Visoflex for more precise focusing.  If I'm doing any of that, it's back to slow, methodical adjusting of the camera for the picture to be taken, which most likely means I should put the camera in (M)anual mode to begin with?  Just thinking out loud here.....

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1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

Maybe I misunderstood.  My take on Jono's advice was to allow the camera to do "more", leaving me free to concentrate on composition and timing.   Unless it's a special situation, why would I want to start debating which type of metering to use?

Maybe this is with the Visoflex, so you want more control - as I might also want in that case, but I thought Jono wanted to separate what I needed do do, from what the camera could do on its own.  

On my M10, the "wheel" is set to exposure compensation, for when/if I need it, and the push button on the front is set to enlarge the image on my Visoflex for more precise focusing.  If I'm doing any of that, it's back to slow, methodical adjusting of the camera for the picture to be taken, which most likely means I should put the camera in (M)anual mode to begin with?  Just thinking out loud here.....

Nothing wrong with setting the function buttons to do what you want.

I have the top button set for magnification, the left middle one as live view, the dial set to exposure compensation (as you do) and I think having the press set to metering type as @Hanno said is a cracking idea (and I've done it!). 

best

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3 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Well, I've never (yet) been to Leica Miami, and don't know these guys.  I do play to visit, if for no other reason than to check out the M11.

I used to use something like Jono's approach, when I did sports photography, but found I got better results in high dynamic range landscape photography by going slowly and methodically, using whatever camera I had with me as if it were a view camera.  I did NOT think that was the best approach to my "walkabout" photography, and Jono's suggestions worked much better for me.  It helped that I was using the M10 - with my Nikons, they "took over" and I got the image the camera wanted, not necessarily the image I wanted.  The Leica almost has a connection with my brain, and for whatever reason(s), I like/love those images more.  Probably sounds stupid of me to say this, but it's always been this way, ever since my first M2.

I'm not sure if I qualify as a long-time M user, but I've been using them on and off since the late 1960's.  There wasn't any "hype" back then - it was just another camera, and the upcoming SLR cameras got all the hype.  I bought one of them too, but I never gave up on my M cameras.

As for the gear becoming second nature, it usually feels that way, unless I'm being ultra-careful as if I was using a LF camera, where everything is slow and methodical.  With the M, used the way I try to use it, the camera "gets out of the way", and the connection is between my brain and what I'm shooting.  The M is just a tool - nothing exotic, or special, or coveted, or imposing, or powerful, and all the technical gobbledygook which I understand is important, vanishes.  The M does this better than my Nikon DSLR cameras.  

 

All of the above brings me back to me, and what I use, and what I do, and I honestly think I will just the same with the M10, or the M11.  Never had an M9, so I don't know much about that. The M8 is similar, but there are/were several things holding me back, and those restraints do affect what I am likely to try to do - as in not go above ISO 640.  Just technical limitations, and I think I shoot my M10 now pretty much the way I shot my M film cameras.  This also made my photography more rewarding than when I used my reflex cameras.  I doubt anyone is going to even know what I mean, but the sensations and emotions are real, even if I can't properly put them into words.

 

It's a shame that Leica has priced itself so high that it's out of reach for average photographer.  It's also a shame that all the rangefinder competition has dropped out, leaving only Leica, and at the same time, photography itself seems to be going away, being replaced by mobile phones for most people.  I'm glad that film is making a return, as that may allow others to get involved in what I call "real photography" using affordable (to them) camera gear.

 

Gee, I didn't intend to write so much here.  Sorry.  

This all seems entirely sensible!

Leica priced itself that high, because unless they manufacture them in the far east and sell millions of them (which ain't going to happen) then it's the only way of doing it. I think they have always been about the same multiple of the average wage though . . . and actually, all of the quality cameras these days are getting more expensive as the market is shrinking ( iphones are so damn good!)

I'm a late comer to Leica (first an M7 in 2006) but I've been making up for lost time!

 

All the very best

Jono

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