nicci78 Posted January 13, 2022 Share #1 Posted January 13, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) Leica seems to make things in reverse now. Other manufacturers consider the lower MP counts as base camera. Eg. S1, A7 III. The high res one is named S1R and A7R III Leica did the same with M10 being the normal lower count. But M10-R the higher one. Now since SL2, the "base" camera is the higher 47MP variant. Whereas the SL2-S 24MP is now the "special" one. Today Leica will do the same with the M11 having 60MP, almost as much as MF S3. So will Leica make a cheaper M11 with the same SL2-S sensor at 6,350€ ? It will be a smashing hit. Please make it. I can wait 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 Hi nicci78, Take a look here Now the 6,350€ question : M11-S 24MP BSI in 2023 ? [Merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
weinlamm Posted January 13, 2022 Share #2 Posted January 13, 2022 vor 5 Minuten schrieb nicci78: So will Leica make a cheaper M11 with the same SL2-S sensor at 6,350€ ? It will be a smashing hit. Please make it. I can wait Call it the M10, today, ...? I think, this is nearly the cam you are describing... For me, there are not so big differences... Today, at the stand of the rumors... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted January 13, 2022 Author Share #3 Posted January 13, 2022 SL2-S sensor is way way better than M10, so it will worth an upgrade 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirubadanieru Posted January 13, 2022 Share #4 Posted January 13, 2022 rumors/predictions for a camera based on a camera that hasn’t lauched yet 😂🤣 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirubadanieru Posted January 13, 2022 Share #5 Posted January 13, 2022 also, you do know the M11 has a sensor that allows for: 60MP 37MP 18MP 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 13, 2022 Share #6 Posted January 13, 2022 vor 27 Minuten schrieb nicci78: Leica seems to make things in reverse now. Other manufacturers consider the lower MP counts as base camera. Eg. S1, A7 III. The high res one is named S1R and A7R III Leica did the same with M10 being the normal lower count. But M10-R the higher one. Now since SL2, the "base" camera is the higher 47MP variant. Whereas the SL2-S 24MP is now the "special" one. Today Leica will do the same with the M11 having 60MP, almost as much as MF S3. So will Leica make a cheaper M11 with the same SL2-S sensor at 6,350€ ? It will be a smashing hit. Please make it. I can wait I asked my dealer to put me down for it. He said, nothing has been announced in this respect. I do believe it will be 33 MP BTW. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
weinlamm Posted January 13, 2022 Share #7 Posted January 13, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hhmmm... From 100% technical point... perhaps. https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Leica-M10-versus-Nikon-Z6-versus-Leica-SL2-S___1207_1269_1360 Yes. It's better. I only know the Nikon z6, so I added it to the comparison. It should be nearly the same as the SL2-s. You are right. But... M is M. It's an other style of taking pictures... for me. For me the most impact is from the lenses. Or better - the combination between the lenses and the special M-sensor-design. In some hours ()it should be 'easy' to get a good M10 for an very good price. Ok. Used... But after the presentation of a new camera there are much "older" cameras on the market. So perhaps the M10 could be the best price-performer (from Leica). And - I think - it's not soo much less. Perhaps worth to think about...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
padam Posted January 13, 2022 Share #8 Posted January 13, 2022 The M11 is the 'base' model. It even has the lighter top plate option, which used to be in the M262. So don't expect it getting any cheaper than it is. If you want that, get an M10. This camera is rumored to be better than ever in low-light, video isn't really a selling feature, so there is no benefit to use a sensor like that anyway, it can be shot at a lower resolution. Eventually, they may use a stacked BSI sensor (like the ones in the Sony A1 or Nikon Z9 or something even newer), remove the mechanical shutter, if they figure out how to keep the same dimensions. It will be a lot more money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted January 13, 2022 Author Share #9 Posted January 13, 2022 by the way in Kai's video, he stated that electronic shutter is not good at all, like other 60MP camera's M camera don't need stacked sensor : no AF, no continous shooting, no video. All three benefits from stacked. Otherwise don't bother. BSI 24MP sensor is what M desperately needs. Kai seems not really impressed by 60MP nor binning mode. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Warwick Posted January 13, 2022 Share #10 Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, nicci78 said: SL2-S sensor is way way better than M10, so it will worth an upgrade what aspects are you talking about here ...technical / more objective ones like noise and dynamic range? ... or more subjective aspects like "rendering"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted January 13, 2022 Author Share #11 Posted January 13, 2022 just technical. Noise for start rendering is a matter of taste 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cboy Posted January 13, 2022 Share #12 Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, nicci78 said: by the way in Kai's video, he stated that electronic shutter is not good at all, like other 60MP camera's M camera don't need stacked sensor : no AF, no continous shooting, no video. All three benefits from stacked. Otherwise don't bother. A stacked sensor allows for faster readout time, which in turn reduces rolling shutter. More megapixels slows down sensor readout speed, which causes the rolling shutter effect... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted January 13, 2022 Author Share #13 Posted January 13, 2022 By the way M10 series are not produced anymore. M10, M10-P and M10-R are all on sales right now in France. Major discounts for each of them. Call it M11 effect. Leica is moving on. So M10 as a 24MP variant is not a reliable option in the near future. We will need M11-S. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 13, 2022 Share #14 Posted January 13, 2022 The M is all about low-light photography and 60 MP with no IBIS doesn’t fit that image. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 13, 2022 Share #15 Posted January 13, 2022 I wouldn't be surprised if a parallel M10 version would emerge some time in the future, if only to offer an entry model. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 13, 2022 Share #16 Posted January 13, 2022 What for some could be the entry model will be for others the “high-performance” model, at least in low-light. 😁 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 14, 2022 Share #17 Posted January 14, 2022 On 1/13/2022 at 1:50 AM, nicci78 said: by the way in Kai's video, he stated that electronic shutter is not good at all, like other 60MP camera's M camera don't need stacked sensor : no AF, no continous shooting, no video. All three benefits from stacked. Otherwise don't bother. BSI 24MP sensor is what M desperately needs. Kai seems not really impressed by 60MP nor binning mode. I cannot guess why Kai would think that the electronic shutter is not as good as other 60MP cameras using non-stacked sensor. It seems identical to me. With the stacked sensor, the mechanical shutter could be eliminated. The shutter sound would be configurable via FOTOS app :). A cat's meow anyone? It seems that 33MP is the new 24MP (Sony a7IV). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share #18 Posted January 15, 2022 60MP BSI non stacked sensor has horrendous electronic shutter. 60MP Sigma fp L is considered one the worst camera ever because of it. That’s why most M11 reviewers dismissed it and warned people about using it for very specific reasons without any moving subject at all. On the other hand that are planning to use 64 ISO way more than electronic shutter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 15, 2022 Share #19 Posted January 15, 2022 16 minutes ago, nicci78 said: 60MP BSI non stacked sensor has horrendous electronic shutter. 60MP Sigma fp L is considered one the worst camera ever because of it. That’s why most M11 reviewers dismissed it and warned people about using it for very specific reasons without any moving subject at all. On the other hand that are planning to use 64 ISO way more than electronic shutter By horrendous you likely mean slow readout and hence prone to rolling shutter. IMO, the issue of rolling shutter is often overblown,. However, one must be aware of the issues. AFAIK, a7rIV owners are regularly using the electronic shutter on their camera (same readout speed). P.S.:As an owner, I think fp-L is one of the best cameras, despite having only an electronic shutter with slow readout. T Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 19, 2022 Share #20 Posted January 19, 2022 Am 13.1.2022 um 10:04 schrieb nicci78: SL2-S sensor is way way better than M10, so it will worth an upgrade I looked at at 33 MP high ISO low-light ARW files from the α7 IV and I don’t like the noise. I think you may be right, M11-S with the SL2-S sensor could be the better option. Not sure if heat in the Sony camera and how the sensor is implemented affected the noise in the files I looked at. They are available for download on the internet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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