What is the most versatile flash to use on a leica MP (film)?

[plaidshirts]

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6 hours ago, Steven said:

So, walking around the streets at nights, if I intend to take photos of people at 2-3 meters, with 800 film loaded in and my shutter speed fixed at 1/50th, what's a good aperture to start with? and how much can I afford to close down in a city environment while still having enough power in my SF20 to illuminate the face ? 

The formula is this: Guide Number = flash to subject distance X F-stop at ISO 100.
So using SF20 and your subjects at 2-3 meters away you’re looking at f/10-f/6.67. Another way to look at it is at f/8 your subject should be 2.5 meters away and at f/11, 1.8m. In other words, close enough.
However, since you want to use fast 800 you have to add 3 stops to the aperture since the formula uses ISO 100, which will add to the total flash distance and blow out your subjects. So stick with slower film until you get a feel for it. 

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[pgk]

Any small flash unit can tend to be a point source of light and as such can produce very harsh and ugly lighting. There are all sorts flash units on the market today with differing heads. I personally prefer a flash with a circular tube and larger reflector because it gives marginally more 'studio-like' lighting which looks less harsh. Sorting out exposure is a simple enough thing to do and there are other, IMO more important aspects of flash photography to master.

[plaidshirts]

6 hours ago, Steven said:

I paid 50 euros for my SF20 in mint condition. Does it really get more low cost than that ? 

Nope. That’s a great price. 

[spydrxx]

After trying lots of flashes in previous years, I settled for Metz to use with my Leicas and Nikons. Very versatile, although bulky, but always gave excellent results. The synch cable is sometimes a little difficult to find, but I love my setup. The composite below shows some of the cameras I use/d with this setup.

 

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[madNbad]

Try this thread: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/254119-sf-20-flash-manual/

 The "7m" indicates the flash is effective out to 7 meters. Anything up to that point will be illuminated properly. Since you have the M10, use it to practice with different settings before moving the flash to the MP. This way you'll have a better idea of what the effect will be. The Nikon SC-28 cord will work on both cameras but give you full flash TTL information on the M10.

[romualdo]

my go to flashes

1. the tiny CF with two auto settings, to 3.5m & 7.1m (plus manual)

2. the Chico flash bulb unit - the capacitor is still functioning well (have had it tested twice by a local electronics person) - been experimenting with various bulbs

this version designed specifically for the IIIf

very happy with both systems

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[Jodad]

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I just found a Metz 52 af1 at a good price. It’s the Olympus/Panasonic/leica digital version. Will this work on a m film camera? MP ?

[plaidshirts]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

Still looking for the answers to these questions if anyone knows ? 

It means that you have lighting up to 7 meters given the exposure setting. Depending on where your subject is in that 7 meters, you'd want to adjust the flash output, but the SF20 will do that automatically on "A mode".

Were your subjects at 1m and 7m in the same picture? If they were lit perfectly placed that far apart then I need to buy what you were using because I've never seen that done with one flash. Now if you're saying they were shot separately, then the flash was doing it's job controlling the output by sensing the light reflecting off your subject.

For further reference: http://www.summilux.net/documents/LeicaSF20.pdf

Edited December 2, 2021 by plaidshirts
added sf20 manual link

[grahamc]

On 11/30/2021 at 9:31 AM, stray cat said:

Some great advice here, but perhaps a definition of how the different types of flash work would help:

TTL flash will take measurements from the camera, what aperture you are setting, shutter speed, and ISO and then compute a flash output.  With Leica film cameras only the M6TTL and M7 allow use of this feature.

With non-TTL Automatic flash you tell your flash what aperture and ISO you will be using then the flash will compute a flash output based on how much light is available.  This will be how most flash units will work on an MP or similar Leica. For example, an SF20 or any of the SCA-based independent makers’ units such as Metz or Cullman. Or Nikons, Sunpaks and so on. Using a Nikon sync cord (SC17 or SC28) to link a TTL or Auto flash will carry all the information both the camera and the flash need to deliver perfect flash exposures with the flash off the camera. Features like swivelling and tilting heads on the flash enable a plethora of options regarding bounce flash etc.

For casual and rookie flash use these two types (above) are generally easier, more flexible and more convenient than the manual flashes described below.

An adjustable manual flash is one where you set your flash output manually based on what aperture and iso settings you are using. You can use a flash meter to determine what you should set the camera to or else you use a relatively complex set of mathematical formulae.

With a non-adjustable manual flash, you don't set any settings on the flash, it will flash at full power. You control your exposure by setting your camera to a certain ISO and aperture depending on how far the subject is.  

Flash gives photography a different horizon. With Leica film cameras the 1/50 maximum sync speed, whilst it may be considered restrictive, lends pictures taken with a flash on Leica cameras a certain aesthetic which is quite unique and may be embraced as a creative tool. 

Great information here @stray cat, thanks.  I have the M6 TTL and SF24 D , I believe you commented on my other post in the film thread.   Where the camera has TTL functionality (M6 TTLs and M7),  I'm not fully clear on the difference between TTL and Auto.    I see that in TTL mode the SF24D will read the ISO from the camera, whereas I presume with 'Auto' it would need entering manually.   Perhaps it reads shutter speed aswell but for me that's academic as I'm using it at 50/1 (the lightening bolt symbol).   

Is it this intelligence behind reading your settings (rather than manually entering them on the flash) that differentiates TTL from Auto, or is there also more sophisticated light reading in order to control the flash exposure ('through the lens') aswell when using TTL ?

It sounds like Steven is getting great exposures in Auto so just curious

Appreciate your insights ! 

Cheers 

 

[grahamc]

Also sorry another quick one - When I use the SF24 D with the M10-D in TTL mode I get a quick pre-flash, followed by the main flash as I take the shot.  This matches my experience on other digital systems and I presume is assisting the camera to read the light (or red eye reduction, I'm not sure!) 

I don't get this pre-flash when using the TTL, so just checking I'm not supposed to be?

Thanks in advance of any help - I'm shooting with this with a client tomorrow for the first time and looking forward to it .  

PS Rare gear post from me as I love this combo : 

 

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Edited December 3, 2021 by grahamc

[grahamc]

17 hours ago, Steven said:

Yes, two separate photos indeed. Pretty crazy tech in that SF20, then! 

And I reiterate what I said. Shooting with a flash is easier than shooting with no flash! It removes a lot of settings to dial in before each shot. 

Thanks for taking the time to explain ! I appreciate it very much. 

I'll look forward to seeing the results Steven ! 

[stray cat]

Hi Graham and thanks a lot for your thoughts. I’m no flash expert but as far as I am aware, TTL exposure means the flash and the camera talk to one another, whereas with Auto only the flash performance and the camera performance are independent from one another. So, yes, on Auto you have to set the parameters on the camera (ISO, shutter speed and aperture) and on the flash (ISO and aperture) independently. With TTL once you’ve set them on the camera the flash will take it from there. In addition TTL will cut off the amount of light at the appropriate time that is actually hitting the film plane whereby auto will cut off the light according to a sensor on the flash unit itself. In practice, with a simple direct flash such as the SF-20 I have or your SF-24D there will seldom be any difference. With more sophisticated setups- multi-flash or bounced flash, for instance, TTL does become a far more accurate and reliable tool.

Regarding the pre-flash, I’d have assumed it was a red-eye reduction thing, but if it doesn’t happen in TTL mode then I’m not really sure. Whichever way, I’d advise trusting the flash as the Leica cameras with or without TTL capability and the Leica flashes are very very well matched.

And that is a fine looking rig you have there! Best of luck with the client shoot.

[grahamc]

On 11/30/2021 at 5:51 AM, Steven said:

Thank you. 
can you explain how an off camera flash carry the ttl info ? 
and how can my MP communicate with a flash via Wifi ? 
 

EDIT: just Googled Nikon sc28 and understood what you meant by carrying the ttl info. 

Hey Steven

If you want to use flash without the cable, you can use a wifi (or maybe it's bluetooth) 'trigger' which communicates with the flash and fires it when you press the shutter .  

Such as these ones I have from Godox.    The one on the left a super light flash .   I use these two for a very simple off-camera 2 light set up.        

It's just to show you how a cable-less version works really (You can see on the photo of the Trigger that 2 channels A and B are set, which will fire both of these lights together).  

Having a trigger on each of 2 cameras during the same shoot (eg Digital and Film) would fire the flash when the Shutter of either camera is pressed, if at all useful to save changing things. 

Unfortunately with Godox, they don't make a Leica version of the trigger (the 'foot' that inserts into the hotshoe is brand-specific).  I use a Canon trigger which fits the Leica hotshoe and fires the flash, however won't send TTL information.   I presume there's Leica equipment to do so or other brands that support Leica TTL but I don't know because I bought all this when I shot another system.   

The trigger looks massive here btw but it's not, and there are ones with smaller LCDS/more compact all round.   Could be a cool cable-less option if there is something out there that supports Leica intelligence .  TTL would then work when shooting your M10R for example.   

 

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Edited December 3, 2021 by grahamc

[grahamc]

9 minutes ago, stray cat said:

Hi Graham and thanks a lot for your thoughts. I’m no flash expert but as far as I am aware, TTL exposure means the flash and the camera talk to one another, whereas with Auto only the flash performance and the camera performance are independent from one another. So, yes, on Auto you have to set the parameters on the camera (ISO, shutter speed and aperture) and on the flash (ISO and aperture) independently. With TTL once you’ve set them on the camera the flash will take it from there. In addition TTL will cut off the amount of light at the appropriate time that is actually hitting the film plane whereby auto will cut off the light according to a sensor on the flash unit itself. In practice, with a simple direct flash such as the SF-20 I have or your SF-24D there will seldom be any difference. With more sophisticated setups- multi-flash or bounced flash, for instance, TTL does become a far more accurate and reliable tool.

Regarding the pre-flash, I’d have assumed it was a red-eye reduction thing, but if it doesn’t happen in TTL mode then I’m not really sure. Whichever way, I’d advise trusting the flash as the Leica cameras with or without TTL capability and the Leica flashes are very very well matched.

And that is a fine looking rig you have there! Best of luck with the client shoot.

Ah brilliant, thanks so much .  Great, yes I thought that may be the case re Auto v TTL but this really helps to clarify. 

I'll give things a whirl tomorrow and see how things come out .   It ought to be more complicated than it is actually I think, so I'll try not to over think it  

Thanks again ! 

[grahamc]

Hi everyone. 
 

I don’t want to stray too far from the original topic but also don’t want to post this as a new thread so hopefully that’s OK someone can help :

I just had chance to give my SF24D - proper run out. Works really great (OP I think the SF20 or SF24 D would be a good choice )

One thing I found a little odd in TTL mode is when using exposure compensation. When I add exposure compensation on the flash unit (let’s say “+ 1”), the metre reading (presumably the distance the flash will cover) goes down.  Eg the reading says 1 metre and I add 1/3 stop exp compensation the distance on the read out reduces from 1m to 0.7. 

I figure it should be going the other way as you increase exposure compensation the coverable distance increases (after all we are trying to make the image brighter ?) 

Conversely if I go the other way and add negative exposure compensation on the unit, my coverable distance on the flash read out increases. 

Seems illogical or am I misunderstanding something about exposure compensation

When not using compensation the read out changes as I would expect ... eg if I open up the aperture the distance read out increases - makes sense to me.

It’s just the exposure compensation part that has me confused. 

Thanks   

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by grahamc

[plaidshirts]

2 hours ago, grahamc said:

Hi everyone. 
 

I don’t want to stray too far from the original topic but also don’t want to post this as a new thread so hopefully that’s OK someone can help :

I just had chance to give my SF24D - proper run out. Works really great (OP I think the SF20 or SF24 D would be a good choice )

One thing I found a little odd in TTL mode is when using exposure compensation. When I add exposure compensation on the flash unit (let’s say “+ 1”), the metre reading (presumably the distance the flash will cover) goes down.  Eg the reading says 1 metre and I add 1/3 stop exp compensation the distance on the read out reduces from 1m to 0.7. 

I figure it should be going the other way as you increase exposure compensation the coverable distance increases (after all we are trying to make the image brighter ?) 

Conversely if I go the other way and add negative exposure compensation on the unit, my coverable distance on the flash read out increases. 

Seems illogical or am I misunderstanding something about exposure compensation

When not using compensation the read out changes as I would expect ... eg if I open up the aperture the distance read out increases - makes sense to me.

It’s just the exposure compensation part that has me confused. 

Thanks   

 

The flash is correct. It’s counterintuitive but hear me out. Say you’re using 400 iso film and you want to overexpose (+1 EC) by a stop you’d move the ISO dial to 200, which is equivalent to making the aperture smaller by a stop (but the f number gets bigger). And remembering the guide number formula I posted earlier, GN = Distance x Fstop, increasing the Fstop number decreases the distance.

Edited December 4, 2021 by plaidshirts
Shortened and simplified

[Mute-on]

+1 means you are adding one stop of exposure, so with a flash of a given capacity, telling it to increase output at a certain aperture will reduce the distance it can throw light at that, now higher, exposure. Flash capacity is measured at a normal exposure (according to a given aperture and ISO), so a higher exposure parameter will commensurately decrease capacity at a given aperture, since the maximum light output of a flash is finite. 
 

In other words, your flash is operating as expected. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Mute-on

[plaidshirts]

I agree with what Mute-on said

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[grahamc]

Ah yes, of course ... thanks @plaidshirts and @Mute-on the 'distance' is the max it will throw so as ambient light increases then the ability of the flash to overpower it decreases.  I think ?  In any case I understand what you're saying, thanks ! 

I think I'll do a session of experimenting with my M10-D and the ISO / Shutter Speed set to what I would commonly use on my TTL .  Then I can run some scenarios and I'm sure it will make sense seeing everything in practice

Edited December 4, 2021 by grahamc

[Jodad]

On 12/2/2021 at 3:00 PM, Jodad said:

I just found a Metz 52 af1 at a good price. It’s the Olympus/Panasonic/leica digital version. Will this work on a m film camera? MP ?

Everyone, would this Metz 52 af1 (Olympus/Panasonic/digi leica) work on the film Mp in Auto?