What is the most versatile flash to use on a leica MP (film)?

[plaidshirts]

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3 hours ago, Steven said:

I'm in the same boat at the OP. Want to try flash photography on film. 

My basic instinct told me to order an SF20 to use on my MPs. Seems pretty straight forward. Second step will be to get a cable to use it "off" of the hotshoe... 

Any advice would be helpful. I have no idea how to use this ! 

Sf20 has an auto mode. You plug in the ISO and aperture, set the SS to 1/50 and shoot. I used it on my M6 classic all the time. Now I use my Fuji EFX20 flash manually. 

[250swb]

I've always used my Olympus FL36 or FL50 (set for 35mm format) either on the flash shoe or via a cable. But it depends what you are trying to illuminate, that would be a really mega clue when it comes to recommendations. By way of context I've been a theatre photographer in the film era and never used flash, despite the stage lighting being worse than a night time street scene. But also I've been a Press photographer at the same time snapping politicians and using flash in daylight. It's a moving target unless the type of photo you want to make is clear.

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[stray cat]

Some great advice here, but perhaps a definition of how the different types of flash work would help:

TTL flash will take measurements from the camera, what aperture you are setting, shutter speed, and ISO and then compute a flash output.  With Leica film cameras only the M6TTL and M7 allow use of this feature.

With non-TTL Automatic flash you tell your flash what aperture and ISO you will be using then the flash will compute a flash output based on how much light is available.  This will be how most flash units will work on an MP or similar Leica. For example, an SF20 or any of the SCA-based independent makers’ units such as Metz or Cullman. Or Nikons, Sunpaks and so on. Using a Nikon sync cord (SC17 or SC28) to link a TTL or Auto flash will carry all the information both the camera and the flash need to deliver perfect flash exposures with the flash off the camera. Features like swivelling and tilting heads on the flash enable a plethora of options regarding bounce flash etc.

For casual and rookie flash use these two types (above) are generally easier, more flexible and more convenient than the manual flashes described below.

An adjustable manual flash is one where you set your flash output manually based on what aperture and iso settings you are using. You can use a flash meter to determine what you should set the camera to or else you use a relatively complex set of mathematical formulae.

With a non-adjustable manual flash, you don't set any settings on the flash, it will flash at full power. You control your exposure by setting your camera to a certain ISO and aperture depending on how far the subject is.  

Flash gives photography a different horizon. With Leica film cameras the 1/50 maximum sync speed, whilst it may be considered restrictive, lends pictures taken with a flash on Leica cameras a certain aesthetic which is quite unique and may be embraced as a creative tool. 

[Steven]

1 hour ago, Ouroboros said:

Depends on what you intend to do with it.

Are you an aspiring Bruce Gilden with a small flash in one hand attached by a synch cable to a camera in the other hand or do you want adjustable power settings,  tilt & swivel head for bouncing the flash, adjustable beam angle etc? 

Take a look at Metz for starters.

Bruce Gilden

 

1 hour ago, Hintsalae said:

Isn't the leica sf20 auto flash that you already have?

Apparently, it's not auto on my MP, as it doesn't have TTL capabilities... Or am I missing something ? 

[Steven]

44 minutes ago, plaidshirts said:

Sf20 has an auto mode. You plug in the ISO and aperture, set the SS to 1/50 and shoot. I used it on my M6 classic all the time. Now I use my Fuji EFX20 flash manually. 

Ok, great, then what's TTL exactly ? 

[Steven]

4 minutes ago, stray cat said:

Some great advice here, but perhaps a definition of how the different types of flash work would help:

TTL flash will take measurements from the camera, what aperture you are setting, shutter speed, and ISO and then compute a flash output.  With Leica film cameras only the M6TTL and M7 allow use of this feature.

With non-TTL Automatic flash you tell your flash what aperture and ISO you will be using then the flash will compute a flash output based on how much light is available.  This will be how most flash units will work on an MP or similar Leica. For example, an SF20 or any of the SCA-based independent makers’ units such as Metz or Cullman. Or Nikons, Sunpaks and so on. Using a Nikon sync cord (SC17 or SC28) to link a TTL or Auto flash will carry all the information both the camera and the flash need to deliver perfect flash exposures with the flash off the camera. Features like swivelling and tilting heads on the flash enable a plethora of options regarding bounce flash etc.

For casual and rookie flash use these two types (above) are generally easier, more flexible and more convenient than the manual flashes described below.

An adjustable manual flash is one where you set your flash output manually based on what aperture and iso settings you are using. You can use a flash meter to determine what you should set the camera to or else you use a relatively complex set of mathematical formulae.

With a non-adjustable manual flash, you don't set any settings on the flash, it will flash at full power. You control your exposure by setting your camera to a certain ISO and aperture depending on how far the subject is.  

Flash gives photography a different horizon. With Leica film cameras the 1/50 maximum sync speed, whilst it may be considered restrictive, lends pictures taken with a flash on Leica cameras a certain aesthetic which is quite unique and may be embraced as a creative tool. 

Ah, finally a crystal clear explanation!!!!! Now I understand! Thank you for taking the time to write this up. 

 

[Steven]

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So, walking around the streets at nights, if I intend to take photos of people at 2-3 meters, with 800 film loaded in and my shutter speed fixed at 1/50th, what's a good aperture to start with? and how much can I afford to close down in a city environment while still having enough power in my SF20 to illuminate the face ? 

[stray cat]

I just checked my SF-20 and on Auto with iso800 film f11 will give you a range of anything up to 16 feet (5 meters) while f5.6 will give you up to double that (32 feet/10 meters). It doesn’t want to tell me f8 or f16 for reasons best known to itself. So you have quite some flexibility within that and, from my experience, exposures will be perfect. One thing, if you do buy an SF-20, or any flash for that matter, it’s best to ensure that it comes with an accessory diffuser that sits over the flash window and is necessary for use with a 28mm lens.

Best of luck with your flash adventures!

[Danner]

I agree about the SF 20.  Leica does a good job with the design, the flash window is significantly separated from the lens axis, which is good for a number of reasons.  I use a (discontinued) Metz CS-2 (I think that is the model), which is of similar design to the Leica, and also of fine quality.  IMHO, some of the low-cost, high-feature Chinese models lack in the area of haptics and user satisfaction/gratification.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Danner

[plaidshirts]

6 hours ago, Steven said:

So, walking around the streets at nights, if I intend to take photos of people at 2-3 meters, with 800 film loaded in and my shutter speed fixed at 1/50th, what's a good aperture to start with? and how much can I afford to close down in a city environment while still having enough power in my SF20 to illuminate the face ? 

The formula is this: Guide Number = flash to subject distance X F-stop at ISO 100.
So using SF20 and your subjects at 2-3 meters away you’re looking at f/10-f/6.67. Another way to look at it is at f/8 your subject should be 2.5 meters away and at f/11, 1.8m. In other words, close enough.
However, since you want to use fast 800 you have to add 3 stops to the aperture since the formula uses ISO 100, which will add to the total flash distance and blow out your subjects. So stick with slower film until you get a feel for it. 

[Steven]

8 hours ago, Danner said:

I agree about the SF 20.  Leica does a good job with the design, the flash window is significantly separated from the lens axis, which is good for a number of reasons.  I use a (discontinued) Metz CS-2 (I think that is the model), which is of similar design to the Leica, and also of fine quality.  IMHO, some of the low-cost, high-feature Chinese models lack in the area of haptics and user satisfaction/gratification.

I paid 50 euros for my SF20 in mint condition. Does it really get more low cost than that ? 

[Steven]

2 hours ago, plaidshirts said:

The formula is this: Guide Number = flash to subject distance X F-stop at ISO 100.
So using SF20 and your subjects at 2-3 meters away you’re looking at f/10-f/6.67. Another way to look at it is at f/8 your subject should be 2.5 meters away and at f/11, 1.8m. In other words, close enough.
However, since you want to use fast 800 you have to add 3 stops to the aperture since the formula uses ISO 100, which will add to the total flash distance and blow out your subjects. So stick with slower film until you get a feel for it. 

Thanks... need to do a bit of homework. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Steven

[pgk]

Any small flash unit can tend to be a point source of light and as such can produce very harsh and ugly lighting. There are all sorts flash units on the market today with differing heads. I personally prefer a flash with a circular tube and larger reflector because it gives marginally more 'studio-like' lighting which looks less harsh. Sorting out exposure is a simple enough thing to do and there are other, IMO more important aspects of flash photography to master.

[plaidshirts]

6 hours ago, Steven said:

I paid 50 euros for my SF20 in mint condition. Does it really get more low cost than that ? 

Nope. That’s a great price. 

[spydrxx]

After trying lots of flashes in previous years, I settled for Metz to use with my Leicas and Nikons. Very versatile, although bulky, but always gave excellent results. The synch cable is sometimes a little difficult to find, but I love my setup. The composite below shows some of the cameras I use/d with this setup.

 

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[Steven]

I received my SF20 today, and mounted it to my M10R. 1/50th, F11, ISO 800, focus ring set at 2,5 meters, and boom! it's the easiest thing to use! I just shot away, all my photos where perfectly focused and lit! 

So I loaded it on my MP, with the same settings, and shot a couple rolls of Cinestill, to check it out. I obviously didn't see the results yet, but I found it easier to shoot than without a flash, since I didn't have to worry about aperture and shutter speeds anymore! 

Two rookie questions: 

-on my flash, it read "7m". What exactly does that mean? That the ranger is 70cm to 7m, or that the optimal distance for my subject is 7m? 

-on my M10R screen, I shot subjects at 1m and subjects at 7m without changing any settings, and both were properly exposed. I suppose this means that the power of the flash auto adjusted itself ? How is that even possible? 

Loving this thing, as it just made my film photography so much more versatile... 

Cheers 

 

[madNbad]

Try this thread: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/254119-sf-20-flash-manual/

 The "7m" indicates the flash is effective out to 7 meters. Anything up to that point will be illuminated properly. Since you have the M10, use it to practice with different settings before moving the flash to the MP. This way you'll have a better idea of what the effect will be. The Nikon SC-28 cord will work on both cameras but give you full flash TTL information on the M10.

[romualdo]

my go to flashes

1. the tiny CF with two auto settings, to 3.5m & 7.1m (plus manual)

2. the Chico flash bulb unit - the capacitor is still functioning well (have had it tested twice by a local electronics person) - been experimenting with various bulbs

this version designed specifically for the IIIf

very happy with both systems

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[Jodad]

I just found a Metz 52 af1 at a good price. It’s the Olympus/Panasonic/leica digital version. Will this work on a m film camera? MP ?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Steven]

On 11/30/2021 at 8:13 PM, Steven said:

-on my flash, it read "7m". What exactly does that mean? That the ranger is 70cm to 7m, or that the optimal distance for my subject is 7m? 

-on my M10R screen, I shot subjects at 1m and subjects at 7m without changing any settings, and both were properly exposed. I suppose this means that the power of the flash auto adjusted itself ? How is that even possible? 

Still looking for the answers to these questions if anyone knows ?