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Options to replace the CL

LocalHero1953
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cboy

cboy

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Imho the future of compact mirrorless are blackout free evfs that have a stacked sensors like the A9. Sensors with very low viewfinder lag and blackout free evfs go hand in hand with mirrorless and in the future will be expected in all cameras

Id wait til Leica inevitably comes to that crossroad and provides that kind of offering.

It's seems the OP sees nothing in the current horizon that can equally replace the CL...Don't succumb to GAS. Lol

I doubt it's come to the point wherein the CL is causing a disservice to ones own photography??? The CL is still a capable piece of kit.

The M11 is not as compact as CL which was the Op's original set of criteria. But whatever catches ones fancy I guess. Lol

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Louis
Louis

This is why SL2-s is not in my list and SL2 is still too expensive to replace CL. This little CL is so good and really impossible to replace: I sincerely hope Leica would not stop the continuation; it

jcalchi
jcalchi

Hero, I want to second what Simone_DF suggested.  But my answer is that there is no substitute for the Leica CL from any other maker in APS-C.  Buy a second CL and hide it away for when / if you

ramarren
ramarren

Well, Paul, I chose and ended up with the CL after using seriously (and for paid work) a rather large number of other cameras. As far as I'm concerned, there is no "better alternative" with an APS-C s

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LocalHero1953

LocalHero1953

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The M11 strikes me as a bit of an odd conceptual design. On the one hand its always-open shutter and metering are designed for mirrorless EVF operation, without the option of shooting with the traditional M shutter sequence, and yet it can't do electronic first curtain, and the best benefits are only obtained with a still sluggish external EVF.

Perhaps I could manage with just manual focus, but I do want a histogram in the viewfinder, and I don't want an external EVF. The M11 looks like it is just waiting for a built in EVF and no OVF/RF. That version might be more attractive.  

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LocalHero1953

LocalHero1953

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13 minutes ago, cboy said:

Imho the future of compact mirrorless are blackout free evfs that have a stacked sensors like the A9. Sensors with very low viewfinder lag and blackout free evfs go hand in hand with mirrorless and in the future will be expected in all cameras

Id wait til Leica inevitably comes to that crossroad and provides that kind of offering.

It's seems the OP sees nothing in the current horizon that can equally replace the CL...Don't succumb to GAS. Lol

I doubt it's come to the point wherein the CL is causing a disservice to ones own photography??? The CL is still a capable piece of kit.

The M11 is not as compact as CL which was the Op's original set of criteria. But whatever catches ones fancy I guess. Lol

I agree about EVFs, and the M11's external EVF appears to be disappointingly not up to scratch. The main reason I am looking for alternatives to the CL is the IQ performance of the SL2-S: colour and low light performance. I don't need the resolution, but I would like camera bodies that produce images of comparable quality. I'm in no hurry, though - as you say the CL system still works well. 

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Astropap

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On 11/3/2021 at 5:35 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

Many thanks to all those who have made suggestions so far - I'm sorry if I've missed ticking the 'thank you' response. I'm not in the position of wanting to change cameras now - as I've said the ideal scenario would be a CL2 with a new sensor. But I'd like to be ready with an appreciation of options if and when decision time comes. I should add Nikon and Canon options to my original list, although in my very limited experience APSC offerings from other brands do not match the CL for IQ (except possibly Fuji). From the tour d'horizon in these three pages, there do not seem to be any small full frame options I have overlooked.

Are you only considering mirrorless?  Have you considered the new Pentax K3iii? I have the Pentax KP. The menu system isn’t as simple as the Leica CL but much easier that some other brands I’ve tried. The new K3iii has lots of improvements, Pentax has many excellent lenses that aren’t crazy expensive, IBIS, weather sealed, beautiful optical viewfinder etc. Just throwing this out there. 

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LocalHero1953

LocalHero1953

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3 minutes ago, Astropap said:

Are you only considering mirrorless?  Have you considered the new Pentax K3iii? I have the Pentax KP. The menu system isn’t as simple as the Leica CL but much easier that some other brands I’ve tried. The new K3iii has lots of improvements, Pentax has many excellent lenses that aren’t crazy expensive, IBIS, weather sealed, beautiful optical viewfinder etc. Just throwing this out there. 

Thanks - but too heavy, too large with lenses.

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jaapv

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I'm not sure if it is on your list, but the Panasonic S5 is quite compact for a full-featured full-frame and Sigma offers some reasonably light/compact lenses. On the. other side of the spectrum we have MFT with Leica-approved Panasonic lenses. 

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LocalHero1953

LocalHero1953

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3 hours ago, jaapv said:

I'm not sure if it is on your list, but the Panasonic S5 is quite compact for a full-featured full-frame and Sigma offers some reasonably light/compact lenses. On the. other side of the spectrum we have MFT with Leica-approved Panasonic lenses. 

Yes, the S5 would be a consideration with or without Sigma lenses - but it's still a substantial weight increase over the CL and M11: midway between the M11 and SL2-S. (I have a spreadsheet long list of cameras comparing dimensions and weights, with or without typical lenses!)

If Leica ever produces a lightweight L-mount body then they would need a lighter weight suite of lenses to avoid diverting trade to Sigma.

I wouldn't go for MFT - not for another lens mount. (I had an OM-D E-M5ii for a while - jewel-like, but always felt the menus were in charge, not me).

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LocalHero1953

LocalHero1953

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Another comparison of CL and M11, prompted by what I typically carry in my CL bag. 

Single lens carry (50mm equiv):

  • CL + Summilux-TL 35mm - 831g
  • M11 +  Apo-Summicron-M 50mm - 830g

Two lens carry:

  • CL + SVE-TL 11-23mm + Apo-Macro-Elmarit-TL 60mm - 1,512g
  • M11 + WATE 16-21mm + Macro-Elmar-M 90mm - 1,625g

In the case of all three equivalent lenses, the M combination is shorter (the lens sticks out less). I haven't checked diameter, but I'm sure the M lenses are less.

As a general conclusion, M11 combinations with lenses are slightly smaller than CL equivalents, and similar or slightly heavier in weight. Some comparisons are unfair, though: the 23TL doesn't really stack up against the new Summicron-M 35, and the range of the 11-23TL is much greater than the WATE (which needs an external VF).

Not deciding anything from this comparison, just posting in case others are thinking along the same lines.  

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lct

lct

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1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Another comparison of CL and M11, prompted by what I typically carry in my CL bag. 

Single lens carry (50mm equiv):

  • CL + Summilux-TL 35mm - 831g
  • M11 +  Apo-Summicron-M 50mm - 830g

Two lens carry:

  • CL + SVE-TL 11-23mm + Apo-Macro-Elmarit-TL 60mm - 1,512g
  • M11 + WATE 16-21mm + Macro-Elmar-M 90mm - 1,625g

In the case of all three equivalent lenses, the M combination is shorter (the lens sticks out less). I haven't checked diameter, but I'm sure the M lenses are less.

As a general conclusion, M11 combinations with lenses are slightly smaller than CL equivalents, and similar or slightly heavier in weight. Some comparisons are unfair, though: the 23TL doesn't really stack up against the new Summicron-M 35, and the range of the 11-23TL is much greater than the WATE (which needs an external VF).

Not deciding anything from this comparison, just posting in case others are thinking along the same lines.  

You may wish to do the same calculations with M lenses ;). The CL is so much more compact that i don't consider my M cameras compact anymore, let alone that my Sony A7 bodies are not significantly bigger.

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LocalHero1953

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22 minutes ago, lct said:

You may wish to do the same calculations with M lenses ;). The CL is so much more compact that i don't consider my M cameras compact anymore, let alone that my Sony A7 bodies are not significantly bigger.

Yes, the CL + M lenses would certainly be lighter than the M11 + M lenses, at the expense of full frame images

I don't have a digital M, but comparing the M4 to the CL the bulk is little more, and noticeably less with M lenses. Here's my Leica collection (the SL2-S is much bigger and heavier).
Photos can be misleading, but to my mind and in my hands (everyone is different) the similarity in CL and M size is greater than their differences.
The CL body is noticeably a featherweight in the hand compared to the M4, which is slightly heavier than a black M11. This difference would translate to a very different balance in use, even if the body+lens combo was the same weight.

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lct

lct

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Perhaps because you're still using bigger cameras so that both M and CL bodies appear compact by comparison. My last "big" camera was a Canon 5D1 and since then my A7 bodies are not significantly bulkier than my M's. For a comparo between M11 and CL, see: https://j.mp/33IlEn7.

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LocalHero1953

LocalHero1953

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You can't argue with the actual figures, but that was why I wrote "in my hands", and why I included lenses. The moment you add lenses, you see and feel the benefit of the smaller M lenses. I could use M lenses on the CL, but then I'd rather focus them on a RF than an EVF.

I'm not trying to persuade you (or anyone else) you're wrong, I'm just musing out loud😉!

Edited by LocalHero1953
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lct

lct

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43 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I could use M lenses on the CL, but then I'd rather focus them on a RF than an EVF. [...]

Matter of tastes for sure. I have only one TL lens, the very good Sigma 18-50/2.8, but it is yet as bulky as a 90mm M lens. My other lenses are mostly M's like those Elmarit-C 40/2.8 or Summicron-M 35/2 v4. None of my M cameras can be as compact as that. Would be interesting to compare the digital CL with LTM bodies though. 

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LocalHero1953

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7 minutes ago, lct said:

Would be interesting to compare the digital CL with LTM bodies though.

I intend to do so - I'm looking for a IIf/IIIf😊
It's a much higher priority than a CL replacement!

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lct

lct

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1 hour ago, frame-it said:

the foveon FP with 60++mp might be very nice if and when its actually released, hopefully with an in-built 10++mp EVF

Would be interesting for sure. Do you have any info about such a project? Just curious as a DP2 Merrill user.

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graphlex

graphlex

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5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

You can't argue with the actual figures, but that was why I wrote "in my hands", and why I included lenses. The moment you add lenses, you see and feel the benefit of the smaller M lenses. I could use M lenses on the CL, but then I'd rather focus them on a RF than an EVF.

I'm not trying to persuade you (or anyone else) you're wrong, I'm just musing out loud😉!

Now if Pixii can keep improving…

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