Pixii - complementary or competition? [Merged]

[Chris W]

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On 4/14/2022 at 9:22 AM, ramarren said:

Sheesh, Chris W. 

Obviously you do not like or want the Pixii because of its format. And now, it seems, my having a lens that performs well on the format and does what I want, and that I paid for happily, is somehow offensive to you as well.

 

It's funny. the defensive nature of Pixii owners amuses me.All kinds of negative projections and exaggerations. I'm sure your lens is superb. I just said it adds a grand to Pixxi's already quite expensive price tag. I have expensive Leica M lenses, unfortunately not equivalent to 35mm in Pixxi's crop factor. that is my only gripe. The camera looks great, the images look great. I have owned similar crop M mount bodies in the past (Epson RD-1s and M8) and found the lack of a decent 35mm equivalent lens was a problem - unless I was buying something with an f4 or f5.6 aperture, or something that was jumbo sized, or something that added a grand to my budget.

That is all she wrote. I am not anti Pixxi or anti 21mm lenses - I'm just pointing out the compromise here.

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[ramarren]

6 hours ago, raizans said:

Don't forget all of the more affordable fast Voigtländer lenses.

That's what makes it important to have reliable, trustworthy reviews from a diverse range of perspectives. Some owner out there must wear glasses.

With luck, I'll have mine in my hands some day soon and can comment on the viewfinder usability with eyeglasses.  

I would say any lens with a barrel diameter greater than about 58mm is going to cause some occlusion of the RF window. Maybe just a little, maybe a lot. But why focus on the negatives? These will simply be limitations of the camera with respect to those lenses, and you don't have to buy those lenses if you don't own them already. 

The obdurate insistence that one MUST have monster, ultra-fast lenses is just as absurd as saying that if you don't have 60 Mpixels, or FF format, "... well, why bother?" 🙄

G

[ramarren]

39 minutes ago, Chris W said:

It's funny. the defensive nature of Pixii owners amuses me.All kinds of negative projections and exaggerations. I'm sure your lens is superb. I just said it adds a grand to Pixxi's already quite expensive price tag. I have expensive Leica M lenses, unfortunately not equivalent to 35mm in Pixxi's crop factor. that is my only gripe. The camera looks great, the images look great. I have owned similar crop M mount bodies in the past (Epson RD-1s and M8) and found the lack of a decent 35mm equivalent lens was a problem - unless I was buying something with an f4 or f5.6 aperture, or something that was jumbo sized, or something that added a grand to my budget.

That is all she wrote. I am not anti Pixxi or anti 21mm lenses - I'm just pointing out the compromise here.

LOL! You are hilarious. You've said the same thing a dozen times, "I have expensive, great Leica M lenses. I want them to be exactly as they are on my Leica M. The Pixii is bad because it doesn't do that. But I'm not saying anything negative, I'm just pointing out the compromise here." 

Do you have to repeat yourself a dozen times to feel like you have made your point heard? Why?

I look forward to some day receiving my camera, when the gods of package delivery whup the Black Hole of UPS into submission. Until then, I'll use my (APS-C format) Leica CL with my expensive Leica M lenses.  

G

Edited April 19, 2022 by ramarren

[oldwino]

3 hours ago, pop said:

I am now revealing a secret.

I nearly returned the camera within two weeks because I found the software in the camera that awful. It tended to hang the camera, the camera lost pictures, the highly compressed image format did not work, and some more  issues. As I had spent my whole professional life writing, handling and judging software, I have my own ideas about what software may be allowed to do and what not, and I have the 'gift' of crashing practically every piece of software on one of the first encounters.

Because I really wanted the camera to work for me, I applied my not so unconsiderable skills in problem determination to the problem at hand.

My reasons for wanting to keep the camera were mainly:

• It's a rangefinder camera that takes M lenses (which I already have and use on the CL).
• It has a minimalist user interface without a screen and with a miniscule menu.
• The rangefinder is accurate with the lenses at hand, particularly with the 40mm Summicron-C, which is my favorite lens.
• Charging the camera and moving images through the USB socket simplifies some of the handling.
• The camera handles well and looks nice.

The whole point of the purchase consisted in getting a rangefinder camera for M lenses without a display, this being my favorite modus operandi for my casual photography.

The number of options available was modest but greater than one:

• Send the thing back und forget about rangefinders without displays
• Buy an Epson R-D1 which can be operated with the display hidden from sight; not attractive: old sensor, same price as Pixii
• Buy one of the displayless Leica M models: not attractive: old sensor, very expensive indeed.
• Live with the software shortcomings: not attractive on account of my temperament.
• Prompt vendor for software improvements.

As it happens, the software vendor was very interested in learning my assessment of the software and managed to eliminate the worst bugs within reasonable time.

So: happy camper here with his present for his seventieth birthday brought up to expectations.

A camera manufacturer that actually listens to customer feedback and acts on it. Amazing. 

[pop]

2 minutes ago, oldwino said:

Amazing

Yes, quite. They know they're a small outfit and they eagerly listen to qualified feedback. There are several reports about the camera which mention their responsiveness, even.

[ramarren]

Yes. Even before receiving the Pixii I purchased, Pixii SAS has proven to be very supportive and has done their best to provide information as well as work to get my camera out of the bog sink which is UPS. They are great folks to work with.

G

[raizans]

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2 hours ago, ramarren said:

But why focus on the negatives? These will simply be limitations of the camera with respect to those lenses, and you don't have to buy those lenses if you don't own them already. 

Fans tend to minimize or hide shortcomings for all sorts of understandable but annoying reasons. When you can’t kick the tires in person, you have to get the information online somehow or another!

[pop]

13 minutes ago, raizans said:

you have to get the information online

... if only you could tell the noise from the information.

[oldwino]

14 minutes ago, raizans said:

Fans tend to minimize or hide shortcomings for all sorts of understandable but annoying reasons. When you can’t kick the tires in person, you have to get the information online somehow or another!

It's interesting that the term "fan" is now used as a pejorative. It just means you like something. 

A lot of people seem to like the Pixii, but I would dare say there are many many more who are not "fans". That's ok...there is no "one" camera that will be right for everybody. I am curious about it, but am still not sure if it is right for me, or where it will fit in with my photography. So, I will watch and wait, and read about what people who actually own the camera think about it. 

[nicci78]

5 hours ago, pop said:

I am now revealing a secret.

I nearly returned the camera within two weeks because I found the software in the camera that awful. It tended to hang the camera, the camera lost pictures, the highly compressed image format did not work, and some more  issues. As I had spent my whole professional life writing, handling and judging software, I have my own ideas about what software may be allowed to do and what not, and I have the 'gift' of crashing practically every piece of software on one of the first encounters.

 

Thanks for the insight. It’ll save me lots of time. I won’t even have to waste time to try it. 
I really hate buggy camera at launch.
Leica T was buggy as hell. So I did not bought it at launch. 
Same for Hasselblad X1D : a piece of s%#! at launch. Seduced by the design and the concept. But cannot stand the slowness and buggy UI. 
 

We are not have to pay for the privilege of being alpha testers. 
Makes it nice enough at launch. Otherwise I will never buy it. Sorry no second chance with me for a first good impression. 
 

Fun facts : even with loads of firmware updates, T were still slow. Same for X1D. 
We needed to wait for TL2 or X1D II to get a proper camera. 
I guess that when a product is launched half baked, it is because it is somewhat rotten from the inside. Difficult to fixed such things. 
 

I hope that Pixii third attempts will be better. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by nicci78

[pop]

4 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

I really hate buggy camera at launch.

You're mostly doing charcoal on wood, then?

If it has software, it has bugs. Not that it takes software, of course. You can implement bugs in hardware, too.

The M8 had bugs (several). The M9 had bugs (several) and one hidden fault. The M (Typ 240) had bugs. And so on. So you didn't buy or use any of those, either, I presume.

I agree that it would be really nice for a product to be fully free of bugs at launch, but this has little to do with reality. At least I can tell you that software bugs can be found, described, analyzed and, perhaps, even be fixed, at the risk, of course, of introducing new bugs.

You know, of course, the technical term for a woman waiting for the man without any faults? Spinsters, they are called.

[loloboubou1]

You will notice just one thing: those who speak well of Pixii are those who own it. Those who criticize have never had it in their hands.

Why do some people, unconvinced and they have every right to do so, need to spend their time and energy finding negative points without ever experimenting to form their own idea? I have a hard time understanding that. In any case, it motivates me to try to restore a little truth! This is why I propose to judge the image quality from DNG (which I propose in a Dropbox), to read the test results of DXO mark, the tests on Youtube of JL Williams and M. Burling and trust ... those who use it. Yes I too had firmware problems but these were quickly resolved directly by David and all the proposed improvements are either active or in the process of being installed (double click bayer / mono, auto isos, sensor fine , GPS, etc.). I HAVE NEVER HAD IN FORTY YEARS OF CAMERAS THIS LEVEL OF LISTENING AND SERVICE!

example of "fake news" comments: Nicci mentions banding and rolling shutter problems! I never had on more than twenty concerts and about fifteen reports: theatre, conference, political meetings, problem of banding and never had rolling shutter
Why ? Maybe because the electronic shutter (not global LCT) is at 30 fps. What the person who in the same sentence criticizes Pixii for not being on trial in Paris and attributes electronic shutter problems to it is not likely to specify, is that there is a Sensor menu in Pixii .
Two options: fast (default >=30 fps) and slow for static photos with a gain in detail.

Edited April 19, 2022 by loloboubou1

[loloboubou1]

Dear Nicci

I work in Paris on May 3 and 4, in Brussels on May 5 and then 2 days of reporting in Ostend. With my tired back I'm going to travel light so:  Pixii + CV15 (oh oh oh ), elmar 24, Apo Lanthar 35, and a 50 between (cron or elmar . Let's fix an appointment on May 3rd in the evening and finish with the gossip

[raizans]

1 hour ago, loloboubou1 said:

You will notice just one thing: those who speak well of Pixii are those who own it. Those who criticize have never had it in their hands.

Why do some people, unconvinced and they have every right to do so, need to spend their time and energy finding negative points without ever experimenting to form their own idea? I have a hard time understanding that. In any case, it motivates me to try to restore a little truth! This is why I propose to judge the image quality from DNG (which I propose in a Dropbox), to read the test results of DXO mark, the tests on Youtube of JL Williams and M. Burling and trust ... those who use it. Yes I too had firmware problems but these were quickly resolved directly by David and all the proposed improvements are either active or in the process of being installed (double click bayer / mono, auto isos, sensor fine , GPS, etc.). I HAVE NEVER HAD IN FORTY YEARS OF CAMERAS THIS LEVEL OF LISTENING AND SERVICE!

example of "fake news" comments: Nicci mentions banding and rolling shutter problems! I never had on more than twenty concerts and about fifteen reports: theatre, conference, political meetings, problem of banding and never had rolling shutter
Why ? Maybe because the electronic shutter (not global LCT) is at 30 fps. What the person who in the same sentence criticizes Pixii for not being on trial in Paris and attributes electronic shutter problems to it is not likely to specify, is that there is a Sensor menu in Pixii .
Two options: fast (default >=30 fps) and slow for static photos with a gain in detail.

That's a false binary, a clear red flag for why fans can't be trusted to put other peoples' interests ahead of their own. They tend to want other people to buy the same camera instead of helping them make their own decision.

Is it too much to ask for camera owners to try being a little unbiased on the internet? Especially when the camera is not available in shops?

[lct]

Not sure if Pixii owners are represented here but criticisms are strong enough for them to "defend" their gear the way they see fit IMHO. From discussion comes light as usual .

[ramarren]

I'm enthusiastic about the possibilities of the Pixii, and delighted with my dealings with the folks at Pixii SAS, but I'm not a "fan" of any camera.

I don't have my Pixii camera yet to make any definitive statement of how well it performs. I have, however, looked at the DNG files provided by loloboubou1 and see them favorably, and I've watched all the available reviews (text and video) ... only a few of which actually present what I consider to be simple, objective discussion of the camera (like Mattias Burling's reviews). 

I chose to order a "new Pixii" 26Mpixel camera based upon its concept and technical specification, and what I can see of its performance with the DNG files that loloboubou1 provided. I didn't order the original 11 Mpixel Pixii because I felt that wasn't enough pixel resolution to meet my desires, given that I already had the CL. One of the reasons I went for it is that you have a time period to test it out and can return it at no charge if it doesn't prove suitable to your desires. That's it.

I'll make my own evaluation of the Pixii once mine finally arrives..

Meanwhile, the tiresome postings trying to find fault with every possible detail of the Pixii are become just so much noise to ignore or laugh at. It is much the same as when Leica or whomever announces a new camera and, before even one unit has shipped from the factory, a half dozen armchair camera reviewers have passed judgement on every insignificant nuance and detail of the camera. It's mostly just silly nonsense and high hilarity to read. 

G

[tsleica]

Leica M is definitely better..but..you pay..

Leica is a cult..you join..

Pixii is probably about to be a cult..and you still pay a lot..

But..it's like a marriage..its all how well you can tolerate/manage the negatives..all cams have them..

This one is groovy..but it also has issues.

These issues would mostly be moot with a $795- price tag..

They would sell a lot of them.

Edited April 19, 2022 by tsleica

[oldwino]

25 minutes ago, tsleica said:

Leica M is definitely better..but..you pay..Yes, $7000+ for a new one.

Leica is a cult..you join..

Pixii is probably about to be a cult..and you still pay a lot..Yes, about half of the cost of a new Leica

But..it's like a marriage..its all how well you can tolerate/manage the negatives..all cams have them..

This one is groovy..but it also has issues. This is correct.

These issues would mostly be moot with a $795- price tag... This is funny. Are there any large(r) sensor cameras at this price point anymore? I can't think of one. And certainly no rangefinders.

They would sell a lot of them. Yes they would. And would be out of business.

 

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[ramarren]

2 hours ago, tsleica said:

Leica M is definitely better..but..you pay..

Leica is a cult..you join..

Pixii is probably about to be a cult..and you still pay a lot..

But..it's like a marriage..its all how well you can tolerate/manage the negatives..all cams have them..

This one is groovy..but it also has issues.

These issues would mostly be moot with a $795- price tag..

They would sell a lot of them.

Yet another insipid set of statements. Keep on going, the hilarity is up there with the best comedians. 🙄

Leica GmBH is not a cult. Neither is Pixii SAS. They are companies. Both make cameras... not run cults.  Oh, you hadn't heard of that? Sorry to intrude on your alternative reality. Move along...

G

[pop]

3 hours ago, raizans said:

Is it too much to ask for camera owners to try being a little unbiased on the internet

If you're interested in the topic, is it too much to ask for people to actually read the thread?