Pixii - complementary or competition? [Merged]

[lct]

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3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Pixii VF is limited to a tiny range of 42mm to 75mm equivalent focal length. Only 1.78x

Digital Ms have 28mm to 135mm range.

You're comparing APS to FF here. A fair comparison would be with another APS camera like the M8 or preferably R-D1 or R-D1s which are true APS-C cameras. Mine have 3 framelines only, 28 (equiv 42), 35 (equiv 52) and 50 (equiv 75). 

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Edited December 29, 2022 by lct

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[ramarren]

All coupled optical RF setups have their limitations. The use of accessory finders is the rule rather than the exception when not using the 'standard' focal lengths.

The M2 has a rangefinder with a 0.72 magnification and frame lines for 35, 50 and 90mm lenses instead of the 0.91 magnification and 50, 90 and 135mm framelines of the M3. The M4 combined these together with 0.72 magnification and frame lines for 35, 50, 90, 135 by pairing up the 35 with 135. M4-P and M6 added a 75mm set paired with the 50, and 28mm set paired with the 90, again at 0.72 magnification*. This setup has been carried forward to the digital M models. For people like me who wear glasses, the 28mm frame lines are next to useless due to limited eye relief, and the 135mm frame lines are pretty small and difficult to be precise with when framing.

The Pixii viewfinder, like the RD-1 and the Ms, is most easily used with the three standard focal lengths provided by the built-in viewfinder, and needs an accessory finder for shorter or longer focal lengths. That's all. I have never bothered with the 28mm frame lines in my Ms ... they're simply too far out of my field of view to be useful, and the 135mm frame lines are so small as to be ridiculously imprecise. I use 28 and 135 mm accessory finders with the M4-2 and the Visoflex 020 with the M10-M when I need precise framing in the viewfinder for those focal lengths. Most of the time, I stick with 35-50-75-90 focal lengths on the M because they fit the standard viewfinder best. With the Pixii, I found myself using 24-28-35-50 focal lengths most. (On the M4-2, I have to estimate the 75mm frame; on the Pixii, I had to estimate the 24mm frame; neither estimation is difficult.)

If these limitations of the optical RF viewfinder are anathema to your photographic needs, no optical RF camera is going to be suitable. Buy an SLR or EVF camera. That's why I keep the Leica CL as part of my kit: it's TTL EVF gives a perfect view of whatever the optics I fit to its lens mount images. Likewise for the Leica SL that I once had and the Sony A7 that I once had. 

G

*The M6TTL was also available with 0.58 and 0.91 base magnification viewfinders, enabling easier use of the 28mm frame lines on the one hand, and much easier use of the 135mm frame lines on the other, at the expense of usability at the opposite ends of the scale. 

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4 hours ago, nicci78 said:

You have to multiply by 1.5x

This is false.

Selecting the framelines for an 28mm lens will bring up framelines which show what you will get in your frame with an 28mm lens. Anything else would be utterly foolish.

 

[loloboubou1]

Dear friends: Pop, Ramarren, Lct and others

 

Nicci is a specialist in attacks against Pixii on all the forums where it is talked about. He has denigrated the business model and reliability of the company, he writes fake news on the legality of the prices displayed on the site, rebels against the price of internal memory, denies the patent of the B&W Raw natives... In his last intervention (to which you answer very well) he shows both the quality of his argument and his gratuitous hatred. Now we must not spend too much time answering him, he uses the strategy of the rumor by thinking that there will always be something of the droppings he sows here or there...

 

And of course it must be noted that he never held a pixii in his hands...

Edited December 29, 2022 by loloboubou1

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, pop said:

This is false.

Selecting the framelines for an 28mm lens will bring up framelines which show what you will get in your frame with an 28mm lens. Anything else would be utterly foolish.

 

Exactly ! 
Put a 28mm in front of Pixii will give you a 28mm in front of an APS-C sensor. Aka 28mm x1.5 = 42mm full frame equivalent. 
Hence what I am saying is also totally correct. 

35mm lens will be like a 35mm on APS-C like the CL = 53mm  

40mm = 60mm

50mm = 75mm 

etc.

By the way. I can’t held à Pixii in my hands due to their stupid sales scheme. Even for a french brand there is nowhere in France a place to try it beforehand. You have to pay first. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by nicci78

[nicci78]

dear Pixii ambassador @loloboubou1

can you tell us in all honesty what is the equivalent full frame focal length of an Elmarit-M 28mm f/2.8 in front of an APS-C Pixii ? 

Please educate me. You never bother to really explain how it really works. 
We have to select manually the viewfinder ? No automatic selection like the M cameras ? 
I am confuse. You never explain anything properly. I am all ears about a real sum up about the real practical difference between a Leica digital M and a Pixii.

What do we lose in practice and what do we gain ? 
Pixii website marketing is purposely too confusing to really help us. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by nicci78

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15 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

what is the equivalent full frame focal length of an Elmarit-M 28mm f/2.8

This is not what was asked.

Uliwer has asked: "Do the framelines for 28/35/40 and 50mm give the field of view if you use the corresponding focal lengthes, or do you have to mulitply by 1.5". To which the correct answer is the one  I gave, i.e. that the framelines show the field of view resulting from a lens of 28, 35, 40 or 50mm.

I really see no point in your question. All members taking part in this thread fully realise that an APS-C sensor is smaller than a Full Frame sensor, and that therefore the sensor will capture a smaller part of the image area than does a full frame sensor.

There is a technical term for what you are doing here. Please stop interrupting this discussion with your ill intentioned statements.

[nicci78]

 Please put in mind that having years of M usage. It is totally confusing ! 
 

Let’s say I am using an Elmarit-M 28mm on a M10. It will bring up automatically the 28/90mm pair of framelines. 
 

So what happens in practice when I mount the same 28mm lens on the Pixii ?? What framelines is shown ? 
 

Nor Pixii website or user manual ever answer this question. Not even Pixii ambassador @loloboubou1
Neither in french or English 

Edited December 29, 2022 by nicci78

[lct]

28 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

can you tell us in all honesty what is the equivalent full frame focal length of an Elmarit-M 28mm f/2.8 in front of an APS-C Pixii ?

Reading the specs may help: 
"3:2 APS-C optical format (1.5 ratio to 35mm)"
https://pixii.fr/specifications

[loloboubou1]

58 minutes ago, lct said:

Reading the specs may help: 
"3:2 APS-C optical format (1.5 ratio to 35mm)"
https://pixii.fr/specifications

It's not worth it... Ramarren and Pop gave him the answer. He asks questions everywhere and questions the quality of the answers rather than his ability to understand. He was also offered to watch the videos of Matias Burling or those of JL Williams where he will find all the answers concerning the handling, he knows where the pages that list the compatible lente are (We are talking about voigtlander 15 and 21 for example...) . How do you want someone who can't understand that artisanal production can't afford to distribute hundreds of cameras to a distributor network like Leica Canon Nikon Fuji do...

 

On the other hand, I always ask him the same question: why this relentlessness ... since the first model ??? Why spend so much energy to denigration when he could use it to, for example, post photos with it leica M or ricoh GR...

 

Let's repeat it... like any troll, don't bother to encourage him by giving him importance through our answers. For my part, it's over, I have better things to do, including getting "ferreros rocher d'or" for the ambassador's meals (French joke)

 

[ramarren]

2 hours ago, loloboubou1 said:

Nicci ...

This person is one of the very few people on this forum whom I have on complete ignore. Nothing useful ever in his posts. My response was supplementary to lct... 

G

[UliWer]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb loloboubou1:

It's not worth it...

Well, the answer on his question would have been quite simple:

If you use a 1:2.8/28mm Elmarit you'll get the frame on the Pixii which is right for 28mm lenses. With this frame you get the equivalent field of view of 42mm lens on a full frame sensor. You do not have to mulitply by 1.5 yourself, the camera does it for you.

Btw: It is neither good practice to encourage other users not to answer on questions nor is it to tell in public whom one ignores. 

[lct]

+1. I was a bit surprised at @nicci78's question as he was using a digital CL that is an APS-C camera if memory serves. Now he has perhaps little experience with APS rangefinders. It may be difficult to understand that the same 28mm framelines can cover different equivalent FoVs depending upon the size of the sensor. 28mm for an M11, 28x1.33= 37mm for an M8 and 28x1.5= 42mm for a R-D1 or a Pixii.

Edited December 29, 2022 by lct

[loloboubou1]

I really like the writing of Lct. What a diplomat! Here is one who deserves the term of ambassador😉 

[UliWer]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb lct:

as he was using a digital CL that is an APS-C camera if memory serves.

Which is generally no bad idea: you may use an adapter and you get the exact field of view for the APS-C sensor for every M-lens you may wish to adapt. No limits as far as certain frames are concerned, no interference between lenses and their hoods with the the rangefinder etc. 

I wonder why Pixii didn't just build a capable APS-C camera with electronic viewfinder....

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2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Nor Pixii website or user manual ever answer this question

Please stop that now. This is simply not true. Every manual I've ever seen on the topic says that the framelines in the Pixii camera outline the area which is going to be shown in the image when you use a lens of the matching focal length.

This is more than can be said for - say  - the Leica M6 which brought up two sets of framelines for every single focal length, thus endlessly confusing the beginning M user.

[nicci78]

36 minutes ago, lct said:

+1. I was a bit surprised at @nicci78's question as he was using a digital CL that is an APS-C camera if memory serves. Now he has perhaps little experience with APS rangefinders. It may be difficult to understand that the same 28mm framelines can cover different equivalent FoVs depending upon the size of the sensor. 28mm for an M11, 28x1.33= 37mm for an M8 and 28x1.5= 42mm for a R-D1 or a Pixii.

So I was totally right. 
 Pixii’s 28mm framelines are equivalent to full frame 42mm field of view. 
So why @loloboubou1 insisted to tell that’s I am wrong  

Pixii viewfinder offers the equivalent field of view as full frame : 42mm 50mm 60mm and 75mm. 
Right or wrong. We need a definitive answer to settle it once for all. 
 

NB : Lct you are right I am a digital CL user since a beginning. So I am well aware about 1.5x crop factor. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by nicci78

[pop]

3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Even for a french brand there is nowhere in France a place to try it beforehand. You have to pay first. 

Again, this is complete nonsense. You can buy the camera and return it within two weeks. And, as you say, it's a French outfit. They are in the Bourgogne and they would gladly show you one should you show up on their premises, I'm sure.

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[loloboubou1]

1 hour ago, ramarren said:

This person is one of the very few people on this forum whom I have on complete ignore. Nothing useful ever in his posts. My response was supplementary to lct... 

G

 

[nicci78]

4 minutes ago, pop said:

Please stop that now. This is simply not true. Every manual I've ever seen on the topic says that the framelines in the Pixii camera outline the area which is going to be shown in the image when you use a lens of the matching focal length.

This is more than can be said for - say  - the Leica M6 which brought up two sets of framelines for every single focal length, thus endlessly confusing the beginning M user.

Sorry a quick check at their tiny online manual. No mention at all. But you can show me where it is written. I would be glad to read it. 
 

Now you are saying that I right too. If framelines show the image that is going to be taken. 28mm framelines = 42mm field of view. Thanks for that.