Pixii - complementary or competition? [Merged]

[ramarren]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Latest news is notations on the tracking log to say that Customs has been paid and cleared (again) and package rescheduled for delivery tomorrow. Of course, the notations were in the inverse of logical order... 

I'll believe it'll be delivered when the package is in my hands. 

G

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[raizans]

On 3/1/2022 at 6:56 AM, nicci78 said:

Isn't it too restrictive ?

Only 28mm (42mm) as the widest and 50mm (75mm) as the longest. 35mm (52.5mm) and 40mm (60mm) in between.

Viewfinder has only 53.6° of field of view instead of 75.4°on any 0.72x M rangefinder. What is the eye relief, can we even see the 28mm frame lines with glasses ? 

Effective base length is 49.2mm same as 0.72x M rangefinder hopefully

So no wide angle nor telephoto field of view with Pixii. Leica has nothing too fear, as long as people wants to use real 28mm, 35mm or 90mm field of view. Some eminently classical M focal lengths by the way

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

In person, how much smaller is the viewfinder image? What camera would you say is comparable?

[ramarren]

The Leica M3 viewfinder was 1x (tuned to a 50mm lens primarily), and frame lines best fitted for 50-90-135mm lenses. 35mm lenses in that day were sold with a set of "goggles" that modified the view and the rangefinder window to be compatible. The M2 moved to 0.72x and no longer required 35mm goggles, had 35, 50, 90 frame lines. The M4 had 35, 50, 90, 135 frame lines in the same viewfinder magnification, and the M4-P/M6 went to 28, 35, 50, 75, 90, 135 in the same magnification. 

I've never been able to see the 28mm frame lines in a 0.72x viewfinder. There's not enough eye relief for those of us who wear glasses in the Leica M 0.72x viewfinder. So, just like the use of 24mm, 21mm, 18mm, 15mm, and/or 10mm lenses, I fit an accessory viewfinder when I use a wide lens. 

With the M6TTL, Leica introduced .58x and .85x variants of the viewfinder ... tuning it to wide focal lengths (much easier to see a 28mm view in a 0.58x viewfinder) and portrait tele focal lengths. Obviously, you need accessory viewfinders to use a 90 or 135mm lens with a 0.58x viewfinder, and you need accessory viewfinders to use wide lenses with a 0.85x viewfinder.

The Pixii viewfinder is nowhere near as expensive to manufacture as the Leica M viewfinder, I'm sure. And they've tuned it to be useful with 28, 35, 40, 50 mm focal lengths, with frame lines to match. The optical FoV matches the field of a 24mm lens without frame lines ... you just use the edges of the optical viewfinder sans frame lines. Okay, on APS-C, these FoVs map to what on a FF camera would be 42, 50, 60 and 75mm lenses ... So it's more similar to the M3 or the M6TTL with 0.85x viewfinder. 

The result of this is that if you're using 24, 21, 18, 15, or even 10mm lenses, buy an accessory viewfinder to match the FoV. Just like you do with Leica M cameras, depending upon which M body you have. 

There's nothing new or unusual, or debilitating, about this. It's the standard thing of using rangefinder cameras ... always has been. 

G

- side note: A favorite camera of mine is a 1954 Kodak Retina IIc. The Kodak Retina IIc viewfinder is beautiful and tuned to use with a 50mm lens. 35mm and 85mm lenses are also available for the Retina IIc ... So *of course* when you use one of them, you fit an accessory viewfinder to match the FoV.

Nothing new under the sun...

 

[raizans]

If the viewfinder FOV is 53.6°, does that mean the size of the viewfinder image is basically like a Rollei 35, Olympus XA, or Contax T2? Is the rangefinder patch small?

At first, it didn’t make sense that the Pixii had a 0.67x viewfinder magnification but only had framelines for 28/42mm, so a viewfinder that’s noticeably smaller overall would finally explain it. It must be cropped in tighter.

Edited April 19, 2022 by raizans

[nicci78]

@raizans I have no idea, I am wondering the same about those specs. It is impossible to try the Pixii in Paris !!! It is a french company, but zero camera store bothered to carry it. 
Crazy. 

So it seems small on paper.

By the way @ramarren M3 is a 0.91x VF and it carry 50-90-135mm. 
M4 is 35-50-90-135mm
The span is quite large into telephoto. 
Pixii is only equivalent to 42-53-60-75mm. 42mm is not wide angle. And 75mm is barely telephoto. 
Base length is really short and RF window can be blocked with bigger than 60mm lens. 
 

It doesn’t seems on paper like a groundbreaking rangefinder. 
 

Those lenses have a > ø60mm :
SUPER-ELMAR-M 3,8/18mm Asph. 
SUMMILUX-M 1,4/24mm Asph. 
SUMMILUX-M 1,4/28mm Asph. 
APO-SUMMICRON-M 2/90mm Asph. 
SUMMILUX-M 1,4/21mm Asph. 
THAMBAR-M 2,2/90mm. NOCTILUX-M 0,95/50mm Asph. 
NOCTILUX-M 1,25/75MM Asph. 
SUMMILUX-M 1,5/90MM Asph.

 

Have you noticed that 28mm aka 42mm framelines are on edge of the viewfinder window. So is it viewable by spectacles wearers ? What’s the eye relief. 
So many questions. No possibility to try it first hand. Sad. 

[MBSweden]

36 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

@raizans I have no idea, I am wondering the same about those specs. It is impossible to try the Pixii in Paris !!! It is a french company, but zero camera store bothered to carry it. 
Crazy. 
 

Have they been offered to carry it?

[raizans]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I don't think it's being distributed, but rather sold directly to customers.

Despite the apparent shortcomings, I think I might order one. I've been shopping for a poor man's Leica, and the Pixii could be my favorite option.

[raizans]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

Those lenses have a > ø60mm :
SUPER-ELMAR-M 3,8/18mm Asph. 
SUMMILUX-M 1,4/24mm Asph. 
SUMMILUX-M 1,4/28mm Asph. 
APO-SUMMICRON-M 2/90mm Asph. 
SUMMILUX-M 1,4/21mm Asph. 
THAMBAR-M 2,2/90mm. NOCTILUX-M 0,95/50mm Asph. 
NOCTILUX-M 1,25/75MM Asph. 
SUMMILUX-M 1,5/90MM Asph.

Don't forget all of the more affordable fast Voigtländer lenses.

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

Have you noticed that 28mm aka 42mm framelines are on edge of the viewfinder window. So is it viewable by spectacles wearers ? What’s the eye relief. 
So many questions. No possibility to try it first hand. Sad. 

That's what makes it important to have reliable, trustworthy reviews from a diverse range of perspectives. Some owner out there must wear glasses.

[lct]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

[...] Base length is really short and RF window can be blocked with bigger than 60mm lens. [...]
Those lenses have a > ø60mm :
SUPER-ELMAR-M 3,8/18mm Asph. 
SUMMILUX-M 1,4/24mm Asph. 
SUMMILUX-M 1,4/28mm Asph. 
APO-SUMMICRON-M 2/90mm Asph. 
SUMMILUX-M 1,4/21mm Asph. 
THAMBAR-M 2,2/90mm. NOCTILUX-M 0,95/50mm Asph. 
NOCTILUX-M 1,25/75MM Asph. 
SUMMILUX-M 1,5/90MM Asph.

Not sure i would list lenses like Leica 75/1.25, 90/1.5, 90/2 or 90/2.2 that have no framelines in the Pixii's VF and cannot be focused accurately at full aperture given the specs of the rangefinder. Also Leica 21/1.4, 24/1.4, 28/1.4 and 50/0.95 are big and expensive lenses whose owners would not buy a Pixii for them i guess. Remains the Leica 18/3.8 that was launched with an exterior VF for M8 cameras if i remember well. Do you think it could not work with the same or another VF on the Pixii? Just curious.
 

[nicci78]

31 minutes ago, raizans said:

I don't think it's being distributed, but rather sold directly to customers.

Despite the apparent shortcomings, I think I might order one. I've been shopping for a poor man's Leica, and the Pixii could be my favorite option.

The first Pixii was carried by one shop in Paris. But Vincent did not bother to sell it anymore. Sales were near zero and  the first version were too rough. 

List of shortcomings (to buy with educated knowledge). 
- no rear screen. 
- rely on unreliable wireless connection with a smartphone app. 
- no SD card, only über expensive storage options. 
- no mechanical shutter. Only electronic shutter. Which means zero photo indoor with several types of LED lights (quite frequent)  and no fast moving subject. 
- no flash support at all. Because no mechanical shutter. Flash hates electronic shutter, except Z9, which Pixii is not. 
- supposedly small viewfinder with very limited focal lengths selection. 
- very short rangefinder effective base length. Which makes focusing less reliable. 
- lenses with > ø60mm cannot be focused. 
- no automatic software corrections. 
- being an APS-C. Forget anything wider than 24mm equivalent. Even with accessory finder. 
- you cannot use anything longer than 75mm. No EVF makes longer focal lengths impossible to focus. 
- no Auto ISO. Which may or may not be a problem for you. 

Fun fact : every of those shortcomings did not exist with Leica CL. 
 

This is not bashing. Just the reality explains clearly. Pixii marketing is not straightforward with those issues. 

 

 

[lct]

19 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

- no mechanical shutter. Only electronic shutter. Which means zero photo indoor with several types of LED lights (quite frequent)  and no fast moving subject. 
[...]
- being an APS-C. Forget anything wider than 24mm equivalent. Even with accessory finder. 

I thought the Pixii has a global shutter, am i missing something? Also could you explain the 24mm equivalence? A 15mm lens would have a 15x1.5 = 22.5mm equiv. FoV no?

[pop]

19 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

This is not bashing.

Good to know. That list of yours is heavily biased.

- no rear screen. is an asset, not a shortcoming, to some people
- rely on unreliable wireless connection with a smartphone app. The connection is not all that unreliable, and the camera does not need that connection for normal operation, just for housekeeping.
- no SD card, only über expensive storage options. Whatever that may mean. The absence of an SD card is a feature, not a bug. Witness the largish number of threads in the Leica Forum dealing with card issues and card purchasing. Moving the images over the USB socket is convenient and fast.
- no mechanical shutter. Only electronic shutter. Which means zero photo indoor with several types of LED lights (quite frequent)  and no fast moving subject. You should try some features before judging them. I have yet to encounter any lighting situation which does not suit the Pixii. Also, any mechanical focal plane shutter would distort fast moving objects.
- no flash support at all. Because no mechanical shutter. Flash hates electronic shutter, except Z9, which Pixii is not. True, and I have't used a flash in the last fifteen years or so, even with cameras that had built-in flashes.
- supposedly small viewfinder with very limited focal lengths selection. The viewfinder is about par with the viewfinder of the film CL, which makes it perfectly usable for a wide range of applications. Again, you should not merely repeat what others suppose about a product.
- very short rangefinder effective base length. Which makes focusing less reliable. Focusing is very reliable for all lenses that can be reasonably used with the camera, i.e. for focal lengths from 28 to about 70mm. I routinely use even the Jupiter-3 (50mm, f/1.5) with nice results. I also used the 90mm f/4 with no ill effects, but that's a bit fiddly due to the missing framelines.
- lenses with > ø60mm cannot be focused. True, and irrelevant for myself, as I don't use that kind of lens.
- no automatic software corrections. The kind of lens you typically use with the Pixii does not need any software corrections.
- being an APS-C. Forget anything wider than 24mm equivalent. Even with accessory finder. Myth or prejudice. There are many APS-C cameras that use lenses with focal lengths <24mm, even < 24mm equivalent. Why, BTW, the insistence of equivalent lengths, and why not stating the equivalence with respect to the prominent 6x6cm format?
- you cannot use anything longer than 75mm. No EVF makes longer focal lengths impossible to focus. Hence, you can not use anything longer than 75mm on any rangefinder camera, such as the film CL (where a 90mm is part of the set).
- no Auto ISO. Which may or may not be a problem for you.  Indeed, not a problem. None of my film cameras ever did auto ISO, and I scarcely ever use that on digital ones. What for?

[nicci78]

I wish to try the Pixii. But couldn’t. 
sorry but cash out 3000€ minimum first for a 2 weeks trial. Is not a meaningful test. 
Please make it available for hands on in a shop. At least in Paris. It is the bare minimum. 
 

@pop I understand your passion for a product you just bought. You may still be in honeymoon phase. I don’t know.
But I still stand by all those drawbacks, no matter what until I can try it myself. And ultimately decide if they can be overcome or not ! 
I am just talking about the potential of the Pixii. Which on paper is way lower than a used and cheaper M typ 240. Or a cheaper CL (the digital one) 

 

Lots of photos available in the french forum www.summilux.net 

But lots of them are slightly out of focus, have wacky white balance, not Leica like colours. So far not impressed at all. 
 

 

Ultimately : no hands on available = we have to trust the spec sheet. And it ain’t good. 
 

No SD card by the way = 500€ for 120GB of storage. Which is outrageous. It is the price for 2TB worth of fast SD cards. 
Please stop copying Apple malpractices. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by nicci78

[pop]

58 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

No SD card by the way = 500€ for 120GB of storage.

This is becoming steadily more silly.

Why would you include 120GB of storage in that camera? How many pictures are you going to take in one outing? Mine has 32GB and I'd have just as soon bought one with 16GB. 32GB has room for quite more than 500 pictures in the DNG format (about 42MB each), and I often use JPEG for plain family shots. But then, the SD card currently in my CL only has 16GB. It's sound practice to move your pictures to another storage at least twice daily.

And, indeed, you can return the camera within two weeks if you don't like it, and then the full price will be refunded if you send back the camera in reasonable shape and with all parts that came in the box. Not much of an issue if you live in france, I'd think.

I don't understand your negative propaganda for a camera which apparently is not even in a segment you're interested in.

 

[lct]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

Lots of photos available in the french forum www.summilux.net 

But lots of them are slightly out of focus, have wacky white balance, not Leica like colours. So far not impressed at all.

Matter of tastes but @loloboubou has been kind enough to drop a couple raw files in a dropbox above and i personally find both color and b&w results more than interesting with less digital noise than my digital CL. I am less seduced by the lack of screen  and diopter correcting lenses that would be deal breakers for me but it's me. 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

@pop I understand your passion for a product you just bought. You may still be in honeymoon phase. I don’t know.
But I still stand by all those drawbacks, no matter what until I can try it myself. And ultimately decide if they can be overcome or not ! 
I am just talking about the potential of the Pixii. Which on paper is way lower than a used and cheaper M typ 240. Or a cheaper CL (the digital one

Philipp wrote exactly what I was going to write. And I have no Pixii nor any desire to buy or even use one*. Writing "this is not bashing" does not make it less bashing. 

* Nor any desire to diss it. If a camera suits the user it is a good camera, if it doesn't it isn't. That goes for all cameras, from Sinar to iPhone.

 

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

Lots rangefinder of photos available on LUF

But lots of them are slightly out of focus, have wacky white balance, not Leica like colours. So far not impressed at all. 

There - I corrected that for you  

[pop]

I am now revealing a secret.

I nearly returned the camera within two weeks because I found the software in the camera that awful. It tended to hang the camera, the camera lost pictures, the highly compressed image format did not work, and some more  issues. As I had spent my whole professional life writing, handling and judging software, I have my own ideas about what software may be allowed to do and what not, and I have the 'gift' of crashing practically every piece of software on one of the first encounters.

Because I really wanted the camera to work for me, I applied my not so unconsiderable skills in problem determination to the problem at hand.

My reasons for wanting to keep the camera were mainly:

• It's a rangefinder camera that takes M lenses (which I already have and use on the CL).
• It has a minimalist user interface without a screen and with a miniscule menu.
• The rangefinder is accurate with the lenses at hand, particularly with the 40mm Summicron-C, which is my favorite lens.
• Charging the camera and moving images through the USB socket simplifies some of the handling.
• The camera handles well and looks nice.

The whole point of the purchase consisted in getting a rangefinder camera for M lenses without a display, this being my favorite modus operandi for my casual photography.

The number of options available was modest but greater than one:

• Send the thing back und forget about rangefinders without displays
• Buy an Epson R-D1 which can be operated with the display hidden from sight; not attractive: old sensor, same price as Pixii
• Buy one of the displayless Leica M models: not attractive: old sensor, very expensive indeed.
• Live with the software shortcomings: not attractive on account of my temperament.
• Prompt vendor for software improvements.

As it happens, the software vendor was very interested in learning my assessment of the software and managed to eliminate the worst bugs within reasonable time.

So: happy camper here with his present for his seventieth birthday brought up to expectations.

[pop]

1 hour ago, pop said:

32GB has room for quite more than 500 pictures in the DNG format

Just for fun, I tried whether the Pixii could handle a Toshiba 1TB T5 SSD. It can, indeed. So, I can move in the field the pictures from the Pixii to a 1TB SSD. None of my other cameras could do that.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[lct]

@pop out of curiosity, would you say the Pixii has a global shutter?

[pop]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

@pop out of curiosity, would you say the Pixii has a global shutter?

I'm out of my depth here. It runs at 30fps, and I think it's a rolling shutter. I can say for certain, however, that the shutter of the Pixii is less prone to artifacts than the electronic shutter of the Leica CL, where I succeeded in a nice set of stripes from simple fluorescent lighting.