Full frame Leica, Canon and Nikon

[scjohn]

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As we sometimes ponder a full frame digital M I was amazed to read about the newly announced Canon and Nikon cameras. The Canon at 21 mp and the Nikon at about 12. You just have to think that even Nikon with all of its $ is having a bit of trouble keeping up. How could Leica hope to?

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[mjh]

As we sometimes ponder a full frame digital M I was amazed to read about the newly announced Canon and Nikon cameras. The Canon at 21 mp and the Nikon at about 12. You just have to think that even Nikon with all of its $ is having a bit of trouble keeping up. How could Leica hope to?

They could go to Sony and order the same sensor that Nikon uses in the D3. That might be a viable option for the R10, but as far as the M line of products is concerned, nobody really knows how to build a rangefinder camera with a 36 x 24 mm sensor, so until that particular problem is solved (if it ever gets solved), there will be no 36 x 24 mm digital M. Whatever Canon and Nikon are doing in the DSLR market has no bearing on this.

[marknorton]

The Nikon D3 is not a competitor to the Canon EOS 1Ds III, more the EOS 1D III where they are broadly equivalent, feature for feature, though the world seems to be much more excited about the new Nikon than they were about the Canon. Depends where you read, I guess.

 

For now, in resolution terms, the Canon EOS 1Ds III is out there leading but most people expect Nikon to respond with a D3x next year which will be a higher resolution version.

 

Given Leica's relationship with Kodak, my money would be on a new FF or near FF sensor from Kodak for the R10.

[msadat]

The Nikon D3 is not a sony chip!

 

They could go to Sony and order the same sensor that Nikon uses in the D3. That might be a viable option for the R10, but as far as the M line of products is concerned, nobody really knows how to build a rangefinder camera with a 36 x 24 mm sensor, so until that particular problem is solved (if it ever gets solved), there will be no 36 x 24 mm digital M. Whatever Canon and Nikon are doing in the DSLR market has no bearing on this.

[guidomo]

... nobody really knows how to build a rangefinder camera with a 36 x 24 mm sensor, so until that particular problem is solved (if it ever gets solved), there will be no 36 x 24 mm digital M.

 

Mr. Kaufmann doesn't confirm they have found a way to do it but why would he make the following statement if they weren't at least close to it?

 

ECHO: Es soll angeblich demnächst eine Leica M9 kommen?

Kaufmann: Da greifen Sie einer Mitteilung vor, die wir noch gar nicht gemacht haben. Wenn man weiterzählt, wäre das natürlich die logische Folge. Als offizielles Statement kann ich dazu nichts sagen. Stellen Sie es sich aber so vor: Wenn Sie Leica-Entwickler wären und Sie fänden einen Weg – ich verwende Konjunktiv – einen Vollformatsensor unterzubringen, dass der Cropfaktor wegfällt, dann würden Sie es doch tun, oder?

 

( Quo vadis, Leica? )

[sean_reid]

As we sometimes ponder a full frame digital M I was amazed to read about the newly announced Canon and Nikon cameras. The Canon at 21 mp and the Nikon at about 12. You just have to think that even Nikon with all of its $ is having a bit of trouble keeping up. How could Leica hope to?

 

They don't need to match MP, the file quality just needs to be exceptional. The DMR is a good digital back but not because of MP.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sm23221]

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If Canon or Nikon come close to matching the quality of Leica lenses then I would begin to worry.

[scjohn]

Hey Sean,

 

I know (as a loyal subscriber to your cite) you have not reviewed either the Canon or the Nikon (since neither have been released) but do you think the "file quality" of the Nikon might compare to the Canon? I have a Nikon system with no dx lenses but I admit the idea of the Canon with 21 MP AND 50 asa (compared to 200 for the Nikon has impressed me. (50 lets you open lenses and lower DOF so much more often). What are your knee jerk thoughts on the subject?

[sean_reid]

Hey Sean,

 

I know (as a loyal subscriber to your cite) you have not reviewed either the Canon or the Nikon (since neither have been released) but do you think the "file quality" of the Nikon might compare to the Canon? I have a Nikon system with no dx lenses but I admit the idea of the Canon with 21 MP AND 50 asa (compared to 200 for the Nikon has impressed me. (50 lets you open lenses and lower DOF so much more often). What are your knee jerk thoughts on the subject?

 

Of course there's no way to say until I test them but the question of lenses is interesting. The Canon FF cameras are more limited by lens quality than anything else. There are a number of excellent Canon lenses but also some that are only OK. I'm eager to test the new Canon 14 because the old one definitely had a lot of room for improvement. The 1DsIII is going to push those lens even harder than anything before and so I'll have to see how they do.

 

The Nikon can use Zeiss ZF lenses which, if the 50/1.4 is any indicator, may be a significant advantage for Nikon bodies. We know that the ZM lenses compare very well with Leica's M lenses. The ZF lenses may compete very well with the Leica R lenses but I don't know yet. Traditionally, the Nikon cameras have more high ISO noise than the Canons, that may be different now.

 

Another wild card is how aggressive the AA filters are in each camera. My current feeling is that little to no AA filtering has more advantages than disadvantages and its one reason the DMR and M8 files look so good.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Fotomiguel]

The Canon FF cameras are more limited by lens quality than anything else.

 

I completely agree with this. When I choose the M8 and bought some Leica lenses, was knowing that canon and nikon would counterattack with MP. Thinking in the near future, I decided to go for the quality of the lens. I think as well the cameras would be limited by lens. The MP War has just sense for comercial marketing. We've already seen how the M8 overcomes cameras with higher MP.

Cheers!

[guidomo]

The Canon FF cameras are more limited by lens quality than anything else. There are a number of excellent Canon lenses but also some that are only OK.

 

Sean, excuse my ignorance, I have no experience outside the M world. But I am wondering if you can use (with a converter of course) Leica R lenses on the Canons and how such a system would perform.

 

Also, why would you want a 14mm on a FF camera? Isn't that a bit wide except for very special circumstances?

[stunsworth]

Guido, yes you can use R lenses on a Canon EOS camera. The downside is that you have to use stop down metering and with some adaptors you lose focus confirmation.

 

There are issues with some cameras - the 5D for example can't use certain lenses because the rear of the lens fouls the mirror when the shutter is fired, but most lenses are ok.

 

I used a 5D and Leica R lenses as my main set up for around 18 months without any problems.

[Guest stnami]

The MP War

.... the top end has always been about quality of image

[jonoslack]

As we sometimes ponder a full frame digital M I was amazed to read about the newly announced Canon and Nikon cameras. The Canon at 21 mp and the Nikon at about 12. You just have to think that even Nikon with all of its $ is having a bit of trouble keeping up. How could Leica hope to?

Hi Stephen

Personally I reckon Nikon have walked all over Canon here - the 1DsMkIII is a remarkable achievement - but if you're spending that kind of money, then why not go Medium format? It definitely looks like a niche market camera to me.

 

The D3 on the other hand looks like a hands down winner for photojournalism and sports, with the optional crop factor and a complete range of new professional lenses from 14mm-600 at f2.8. I think that we'll soon be seeing a change at the sidelines of sports events from the domination that Canon has had for the past few years.

 

Even at the lower level, the Canon 40D may be cheaper than the D300, but it looks like a toy in comparison. I love the way that Nikon put all the best features into their cheaper cameras, so that the D300 will make a perfect backup for professionals using the D3, this just isn't the case with the Canon range.

[jaapv]

I don't think Leica has to worry about anybody bringing out a FF M-type camera. It is not just the well-known problems with the register distance/vignetting etc., it is a matter of the camera size as well. Leica had a hard time designing and fitting in a shutter mechanism for 1.3 without losing the M form and size, just imagine the difficulties with a full size shutter. Not like a DSLR, which has far less constraints in this respect. Until somebody figures out a shutterless 135 class sensor, there is no getting around this.

[ddp]

If Canon or Nikon come close to matching the quality of Leica lenses then I would begin to worry.

 

Nikon & Canon do have some stellar lenses in their lineup...

[george_b]

I just wish there was some ''real developments'' on the issues of dust on sensors before everyone tries to make sensors bigger/longer/wider/faster/smoother, etc.

OK, I know about blowers and various options to clean the sensors either yourself or off to the repair / sensor cleaners shop. I shall be interested to hear real life experiences of vibrating sensors, dust mapping RAW converters, etc. A real engineering development would eliminate the problem.

So before I get too excited about a FF M8, M9 or whatever I would sooner see some real progress on the dust issue.

Oh and BTW I have an M8 and love it to bits and a 1DsMII; I hate having to insert any form of cleaning tool for the fear of doing damage to my expensive kit.

[jaapv]

In practice dust is no big deal - much more managable than dust in the analogue process.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[woodyspedden]

Hi Stephen

Personally I reckon Nikon have walked all over Canon here - the 1DsMkIII is a remarkable achievement - but if you're spending that kind of money, then why not go Medium format? It definitely looks like a niche market camera to me.

 

The D3 on the other hand looks like a hands down winner for photojournalism and sports, with the optional crop factor and a complete range of new professional lenses from 14mm-600 at f2.8. I think that we'll soon be seeing a change at the sidelines of sports events from the domination that Canon has had for the past few years.

 

Even at the lower level, the Canon 40D may be cheaper than the D300, but it looks like a toy in comparison. I love the way that Nikon put all the best features into their cheaper cameras, so that the D300 will make a perfect backup for professionals using the D3, this just isn't the case with the Canon range.

 

Personally I think Nikon has made great strides here. They have a large MP count (12Mpx) sensor in a body that supports 9 frames per second full frame. This clearly tops the 1DMkIII. The high speed crop mode, which is a holdover from the D2X allows for more reach with standard telephoto lenses and has its place for sports and wildlife shooters albeit with only 6Mpx resolution.

 

I believe Nikon will come out with another body in the near future which will have higher resolution at lower frame rates in order to compete with the 1DsMkIII for guys like me who shoot primarily landscapes.

 

I don't know who makes the Nikon sensor and I haven't seen any press info that clarifies this. It is a CMOS chip though so there are not that many people who could be involved. Nikon is advertising very high ISO performance so it would appear that it is at least as good as the Canon chips in this regard. I just hope that Nikon doesn't end up with the "plasticy" looking files that Canon have.

 

Personally, I have kept all of my great R glass and am looking forward to the R10. There are certainly occasions when I would love to have autofocus (kids, sports, wildlife etc) but I would not give up the superb Leica files to go there.

 

Woody Spedden

[sean_reid]

Sean, excuse my ignorance, I have no experience outside the M world. But I am wondering if you can use (with a converter of course) Leica R lenses on the Canons and how such a system would perform.

 

Also, why would you want a 14mm on a FF camera? Isn't that a bit wide except for very special circumstances?

 

Steve answered your first question. As to the second - I shoot architectural interiors professionally - sometimes I even need to go to 12 mm on FF. If Canon's new 14 is a much better lens, that will be a huge asset for architectural photographers.

 

Meanwhile, however, Zeiss could well introduce ultra-wides in the ZF mount - appealing for the FF Nikon.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean