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Full frame Leica, Canon and Nikon


scjohn

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the world seems to be much more excited about the new Nikon than they were about the Canon. Depends where you read, I guess.

 

Yes, it would appear that the minority subset of "the world" who are vested in the Nikon system (myself included) are rather more excited than the majority subset who are vested in Canon ;) However I daresay that 'the world' at large is somewhat indifferent to a $5000 camera of any specification :D

 

They [Leica] don't need to match MP, the file quality just needs to be exceptional.

 

...moreover it needs to say "Leica" :D

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They could go to Sony and order the same sensor that Nikon uses in the D3. That might be a viable option for the R10, but as far as the M line of products is concerned, nobody really knows how to build a rangefinder camera with a 36 x 24 mm sensor, so until that particular problem is solved (if it ever gets solved), there will be no 36 x 24 mm digital M. Whatever Canon and Nikon are doing in the DSLR market has no bearing on this.

 

Why are you so sure that this 36x24 sensor of the D3 comes from Sony ????

 

I doubt this is true. It is a Nikon's own development as far as I know.

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Personally I think Nikon has made great strides here. They have a large MP count (12Mpx) sensor in a body that supports 9 frames per second full frame. This clearly tops the 1DMkIII. The high speed crop mode, which is a holdover from the D2X allows for more reach with standard telephoto lenses and has its place for sports and wildlife shooters albeit with only 6Mpx resolution.

 

I believe Nikon will come out with another body in the near future which will have higher resolution at lower frame rates in order to compete with the 1DsMkIII for guys like me who shoot primarily landscapes.

 

I don't know who makes the Nikon sensor and I haven't seen any press info that clarifies this. It is a CMOS chip though so there are not that many people who could be involved. Nikon is advertising very high ISO performance so it would appear that it is at least as good as the Canon chips in this regard. I just hope that Nikon doesn't end up with the "plasticy" looking files that Canon have.

 

Personally, I have kept all of my great R glass and am looking forward to the R10. There are certainly occasions when I would love to have autofocus (kids, sports, wildlife etc) but I would not give up the superb Leica files to go there.

 

Woody Spedden

 

There is more than just rumors that a high resplution version of the D3 is coming in some 6 months - which might then be 24MP, if they do the same as they did between D2H and D2X. The price level would be more in the range of the 1DSMKII I guess.

 

Waht Leica can do about a FF sensor in the range of 20MP is unclear to me. I am not aware that Kodak has such a sensor or is close to produce one, so Leica must have details of the sensor at least today, if they are designing the R10 with plans to unveil it during Photokina 2008 (in 1 year). Otherwise this will not happen by that time.

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Have to remember Kodak is making big sensors for Phase One and there whole line of MF backs.

 

The latest Kodak 31MP and 39MP sensors for MF backs all have the same pixel pitch of 6.8μm, they only need to cut it to 36x24mm size and make it a 5294x3530 18.7MP sensor.

 

DALSA has a 36x24mm FF sensor of 17MP with a 7.2μm pixel pitch.

 

Also I can confirm the D3 sensor IS a Sony sensor but Nikon owns the exclusive rights and they haven't agreed to sell it to a third party because Nikon led the co-op project although Sony fabricated it.

 

Sony has another 35mm FF sensor which they own sole rights to it and will make it available to any company who will pay for it.

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In practice dust is no big deal - much more managable than dust in the analogue process.

Maybe / maybe not. Different things to different people, for me - I just think the dust issues should have a higher priority than the eternal pixel chase.

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There is more than just rumors that a high resplution version of the D3 is coming in some 6 months

 

Can you point me to any links or info about this? If Nikon is going to produce a higher res / slower speed body within a year of the D3 I will certainly wait. I do not need that much speed and would prefer the higher res.

 

Thanks

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I've been reflecting on the full-frame sensor thing and I do now wonder about the value of a full-frame sensor in a camera such as an M8. Yes, it means that a 21mm gives the full 90 degree field of view as there is no cropping of the image circle. But my feeling is that a company with Leica's pedigree for optical design would maybe do better to spend its R&D budget on producing the shorter focal lengths to take full advantage of the 1.3 crop sensor.

Many of us agonise over how sharp this lens is or the resolution of that sensor, but in terms of resolution, the sensor is, I suspect, "good enough" for many/most of us. After all, the only way that one can fully exploit the resolution of the sensor/lens is to bolt the camera to a tripod, which is anathema to many, if not most Leica M users.

 

The shots can be printed to A3 (and more) and the results probably surpass what can be produced using an equivalent film set-up.

Moreover, it's possible that some of the limitations that people are talking about with respect to lens quality on full-frame sensors will afflict leica lenses too - especially wide-angles.

 

They've taken a step in the right direction IMHO with the WATE, but for me this is way too expensive. Following on from the release of the new range of Summarits, i'd like to see some sensibly priced 16mm, 21mm and 24mm fixed lenses to complement the existing Elmarit line-up.

 

That's my 0.2p worth. I'm off for a glass or two of wine now!

Cheers

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Steve answered your first question. As to the second - I shoot architectural interiors professionally - sometimes I even need to go to 12 mm on FF. If Canon's new 14 is a much better lens, that will be a huge asset for architectural photographers.

 

Meanwhile, however, Zeiss could well introduce ultra-wides in the ZF mount - appealing for the FF Nikon.

 

While you're at it, ask them for a 20mm PC lens with about 12mm of shift. (An 18mm PC would get bonus points.)

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Guest guy_mancuso
The latest Kodak 31MP and 39MP sensors for MF backs all have the same pixel pitch of 6.8μm, they only need to cut it to 36x24mm size and make it a 5294x3530 18.7MP sensor.

 

Bingo case closed

 

 

18mm PC with minimum of 8mm shift and i would be running to get in line, frankly name your price

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Bingo case closed

 

 

18mm PC with minimum of 8mm shift and i would be running to get in line, frankly name your price

Well, the Kodak sensors for medium format don't have the speed or high ISO performance we are looking for in a 35mm system, and if we want liveview and other fancy features, as well as possibly some microlens shifting even in an R10, then it will take some real development time.

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Carsten, if you look at Michael's P45+ review the Kodak sensor actually works quite well up to ISO 800 ... if it's cut down to 35mm FF size I'm sure the power consumption and noise caused by heating would be much less. It's very doable IMO.

 

I'm speaking for myself of course but please ... do not add features such as live view to either the R10 or M9, it only adds costs and brings down efficiency. For folks who REALLY needs it, there's always a Digilux, right?

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Well, the Kodak sensors for medium format don't have the speed or high ISO performance we are looking for in a 35mm system, and if we want liveview and other fancy features, as well as possibly some microlens shifting even in an R10, then it will take some real development time.

 

 

Leica will never be able to match Canon and Nikon feature for feature. Expending development resources on things like live view and auto dust removal doesn't sound feasable. Leica should focus on the important stuff.

 

Image quality, fast AF that is seamlessly integrated with manual focus when you want it. An industry leading viewfinder and a simple interface with analogue controls. R lens compatibility. A full frame 16-18MP sensor could match or exceed the quality of a 22MP sensor done right. That should do it.

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Leica .... resources on things like live view and auto dust removal ....

For what it's worth from where I sit. You can keep live view. I am getting disenchanted with fighting dust, OK you can clean the sensors, etc but many including myself do not sit easily with having to it with a camera costing in excess of UK £3000. Heck I'm a photographer not a camera technician, advancing years are not kind to my eyesight with closeup stuff.

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Guest guy_mancuso

Dust is a non issue and just part of the digital world just like any other camera. Just like film and dust spotting. Big hole theory and not a darn thing you can do and those sensor cleaners to me are just another gimmick. Even if it does work i don't want it and don't want to pay for it. I can't tell you how many times my film was screwed coming from the labs. George try a sensor lupe works really nice to know where the crap is.

 

Actually Simon does have a point 35mm do run cooler than MF backs because they take less power so noise could very well be better and i am sure there are some tricks that can be done for noise in firmware too. But the sensors are there for Kodak in the big sizes so it's not like they can't do it, far from it there a leader here in large sensors

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