90mm Recommendation (pair with 50mm Summicron V3 / 35mm Summicron V4)

[grahamc]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi Everyone 

New member / first post here but long time reader, and would appreciate some input on a 90mm choice.  

I have the 35mm Summicron V4, 50mm Summicron V3 and really happy with the choices.  I arrived at these choices when I first got into the M system, because my first taste of M Mount was via the  Minolta Rokkor 40mm (which I got courtesy of a CLE purchase). I loved it - so on basis of  a tonne of research for 'similar' choices, I arrived at the conclusion that 35mm Cron V4 and 50mm Cron V3 were probably the right lenses for me in those focal lengths.  And I've been super happy with this set.

Now in those focal lengths things seemed fairly straight forward in terms of agreement on the general characteristics they deliver - most research will suggest that if you enjoy a bit of a 'classical' touch (I'm hesitant to say "Character"!) then the 35mm V4 Cron, 50mm V3 Cron (and immediate predecessors) are good places to look, or one could look at the Pre-ASPH Lux's in both focal lengths.  In turn there is reasonably universal agreement of when things then got more modern in rendering (pretty universally agreed that 50mm Cron V4 and upwards is more modern/clinical, for example).

90mm I'm not finding the same consistency in advice of which lenses belong to the era that I seem to be gravitating to - there seems to be many 'favourite' 90mm's, but not so much universally agreed milestones in the same way I'm understanding the 35mm and 50mm lines.  

I suppose in general I've gone for choices that still have some classical character but are not wild horses .  And for what it's worth I've really loved travelling light with Leica so would probably stay away from the Cron's - despite the Pre-ASPH Cron (v2?) being one of the only 90s I've noticed mentioned that is consistently mentioned as perhaps being a rendering 'fit' . 

Thanks guys, hope to get some help re what might naturally pair my set.  Happy to go F4 if needed although a stop more is always good. 
Cheers ! 

 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by grahamc

[a.noctilux]

Short answer: every 90mm you would find may be the right one.

 

Have a look here (link to  thread...) where we can see "every 90mm rendering"

...

To go further 😇.

At the beginning, some decades ago, I had trio 35/50/90 * Summicron of the period.

No other choices possible by then.

So I used the Summicron 35/50/90 trio on Kodachrome for very long period.

Now when I look at those slides, I'm glad that those "whole rendering" is fairly homogenious.

 

Present day, I'd take one of my 90mm ( Elmarit of '60's, Tele-Elmarit thin ( this one having sold 3 times not easy lens but very light), Elmar of the 50's, Macro-Elmar-M, I don't have Summicron anymore ), still waiting for the Summarit-M 2.5/90 as I have 35/50/75 homonyms, and pleasing to complete the set.

 

* now we'd call 35mm v IV, 50 v III, 90 v III (this one ) discovered later that they are all Walter Mandler's creations 👍

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by a.noctilux

[grahamc]

Interesting, thanks for the link to the rendering thread

Interesting also that the 90 v III cron is the one lens that keeps popping up as being in the 'family' I had chosen - it seems your choices decades ago confirm that. I had thought that VIII Cron was a large lens (eg larger than ELMARIT-M) although I've just realised it's not.  It is heavier however . Definitely food for thought 

[SiggiGun]

If you need f2 =Apo90 if f4 is sufficient = Macro Elmar 90

Between the TeleElmarit f2. 8 is a good compromise 

[grahamc]

Thanks - Tele-Elmarit would definitely suit my size preferences.  it might be the way I end up going. Is there much agreed wisdom on how the fat and thin versions compare ?

[a.noctilux]

2 hours ago, grahamc said:

Thanks - Tele-Elmarit would definitely suit my size preferences.  it might be the way I end up going. Is there much agreed wisdom on how the fat and thin versions compare ?

Never have the fat, so I can't comment.

...

Thin...

As said so often, I have love/no love/love affairs with Tele-Elmarit 90mm thin.

I like the small size and it's very light for ...90mm but It can flare badly in contre-jour and with M it was not manageable.

 

Now it's another story as I do know well it's behavior, before that  I soldtwo/three times thinking it was that particular lens flaw :

- in doubt, I use liveview/EVF in difficult lighting, when possible

- in most of time I use from f/5.6 onward (even then flare can occur) and long hood ( '12575' this can help but not always ! )

link to "alternative to TE90" *

- why I use many 90mm lenses, each can have "flaws" acceptable or not

...

* where we can see my happy everyday light kit (35/50/90 Leitz LTM , Monochrom)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

😇

[lct]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Thin Tele-Elmarit 90/2.8 seems to fit your bill if you want a compact Leica lens but you'll have to cup your hand around the lens or make some more haze otherwise when strong light sources like the sun are just outside the frame due to flare issues. BTW if f/4 is fast enough for you the Rokkor-M 90/4 for Minolta CLE is at least as good with significantly less flare than the T-E.

[pippy]

I'd agree with everything which has been said previously.

Judging by the lenses you already have my guess would be that the v3 Summicron would be your preferred option. FWIW I have the 'Thin' Tele-Elmarit; the v3 Summicron and a Karbe-era Summarit.

The 'Thin' is a great performer but (as both Arnaud and LCT mention) if you have a habit of shooting into the sun flare might be a problem. If you don't then it's hard to fault the lens; it has geat IQ, it's tiny and it's a feather-weight. The Summarit is very much a 'modern' lens and is a spectacularly good performer but the images it produces might not 'match' those which your other lenses provide (if 'matching' is important). The v3 Summicron, OTOH, simply does everything supremely well. Although decidedly bigger than the T-E it's still not - in modern day terms! - a large lens. An APO will (again) provide slightly more 'modern' results but, like the Summarit, these will not be a match for your existing lenses.

Much as I liked both my T-E and the Summarit I ended up buying the v3 and, embarrasingly, have never used either of the others since the Summicron arrived...

Cue Gratuitous Snap on the good old M-D...

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Philip.

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by pippy

[grahamc]

Thanks - That Cron does look lush on the M-D.  Which is the same camera I am using, hence minimising flare could be a smart move.  For some reason I'm tempted to take chance on the Rokkor - the 40mm is awesome and a real sleeper in the range.

Things are definitely pointing in that direction or the T-E .  I am often shooting after sunrise and living on the coast, meaning the flare could be an issue.  So I'm leaning towards giving the Rokkor a chance despite my heart saying Leica !   I have the CLE and a 2/3 complete set (28mm & 40mm Rokkor's) so that's also a good excuse to give the Rokkor a try vers the T-E.    I'll have a good check of the 90mm rendering thread first though because from what I see of the T-E so far I am starting to think it's a great compliment to my existing set 

Definitely getting some clarity on this now thanks 

And any other input / suggestions very welcome

Edited June 17, 2021 by grahamc
spelling

[luigi bertolotti]

The Summicron V3 is indeed not so heavy/bulky... but don't forget that usage of f2 is ALWAYS a delicate issue.

So... Tele Elmarit is the way to go, imho : its rubber hood isn't at the top... but keeps the compactness of the set

The modern Macro Elmar is a (rather costly) alternative : compact a lot... but in normal use one can dislike a bit the extract/retract action : in my opinion (have all those 3) is the sharpest of the trio at comparable closures. If Macro is of interest for you, it's a great value adder - light - easy to carry - very functional (I am almost sad that from when I got it - with macro adapter - I put aside the Summicron50+SOMKY set... used it for so many years... 🤥)

Modern Elmarit "non tele" is the best 90 I have, for rendering... but is big/heavy (also for my irresistible propension for chromes.... 🙄)

 

 

 

[a.noctilux]

Sizes comparing here is not fair for the nice rendering Elmarit 2.8/90mm at left, then Tele-Elmarit 'thin' 90mm followed by the Summarit-M 2.5/75mm

in use it's balancing on the camera is superb though with very large focus ring

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

More precision on 'Cron 90 ...

Why I don't have the excellent Summicron-M 90mm anymore,

I did use some 90mm on my M, when M8 came, I must trade to buy it in 2007, the 'right' value/use rate was the Summicron-M 90,

so I traded it for M8 (a shame ?), thinking to buy it later on, but that rebuy never occured.

👌

My goto 90 is one of the two Elmarit (one in black, one chrome to go with M of right colour), nothing to complain and usable without hood from f/2.8

and the round aperture at every setting is bonus.

Edited June 17, 2021 by a.noctilux

[pippy]

4 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said:

...So... Tele Elmarit is the way to go, imho : its rubber hood isn't at the top... but keeps the compactness of the set...

I agree that the Thin T-E is hard to beat and it's the 90 I always take when travelling; not done much of that for 15 months, though!

Am I correct in thinking that the 12575 can be used with the T-E? Personally I always use a 12585 (only because I have some to hand) and it seems to work very well in almost all circumstances but the 12575 might be That might offer a better solution that the supplied rubber hood and the 12575 can be reversed - for carrying - in the name of compactness.

Philip.

[ianman]

I have a T-E fat as well as the Summicron APO. If you want a small, lightweight 90mm, the T-E would be the way to go.

I would suggest doing a search and finding out what @adanhas to say about the differences between the fat and thin versions. IIRC he is the T-E master.

[a.noctilux]

Philip, correct that the 12575 hood can (must ?) be used on the T-E, even if a bit overkill on such a compact lens.

It can be reversed also to keep compactness.

 

I just have a look at my thin T-E 90, it's now "covered" with plastic hood for 50mm #12538 + 14033 cap, best compromise, in my own way.

Edited June 17, 2021 by a.noctilux

[luigi bertolotti]

14 minutes ago, pippy said:

I agree that the Thin T-E is hard to beat and it's the 90 I always take when travelling; not done much of that for 15 months, though!

Am I correct in thinking that the 12575 can be used with the T-E?

Absolutely it can... and is a very good hood. 12575 reversed and an UV fliter on (no cap) is my way.

 

[pippy]

7 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

...I just have a look at my thin T-E 90, it's now "covered" with plastic hood for 50mm #12538 + 14033 cap, best compromise, in my own way...

Not wishing to stray too far off-topic but whilst I prefer the 'two viewing apertures' design of the 12538 (instead of the 3 of the 12585) I do wish Leica had made the 12538 in metal as I always find the mounting ring deforms when trying to attach the hood to the lens!

+1 for using the 14033 with whichever clip-on hood is chosen.

Philip.

EDIT : Having just seen Luigi's comment about the cap; I like using the cap because usually the 90 will spend most of the shooting-day in the bag and it just gives a little more protection against dust. And yes; using these types of hood means that filters can be screwed-in and the hood still slips over them with no fuss.

Edited June 17, 2021 by pippy

[ianman]

16 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Philip, correct that the 12575 hood can (must ?) be used on the T-E, even if a bit overkill on such a compact lens.

It can be reversed also to keep compactness.

Why overkill? I’m sure it was designed with the indicated lenses in mind, and as you write, reversed it hardly take up any space and adds a good amount of protection to the lens. Mine is 12575N with a chrome base. I have no idea what the “N” is for!?

[lct]

Cannot advise the 90/2 v3 due to CA sorry but it is one of my favorite portrait lenses. As for the 12575 hood it fits perfectly the T-E and protects it in reversed position. It is a tall hood though and won't reduce the flare issues significantly. It helps when cupping the hand around the lens though. BTW it is the same hood as that of the current Macro-Elmar 90/4. 

[luigi bertolotti]

I am on a wild side when speaking of CAPS 😒 : have lost one more 5 days ago (Summilux 50) and is the 3rd in last 12 months... 😞 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pippy]

9 minutes ago, ianman said:

...Mine is 12575N with a chrome base. I have no idea what the “N” is for!?

I suspect the 'N' might just designate that it is an updated model from the original design.

The 'old version' had a narrow chrome band and the hood carried the engraving "Elmar 9cm (and) Hektor 13.5cm". The newer 12575N version had a wider chrome band and the engraving was changed and now named four lenses - two each of 135 and 90. Later still the chrome band was changed to black-chrome.

Interested parties can currently inspect the first two variants on the Peter Loy website.

Philip.