Leica SL2-S for Independent Low Budget Movie Making?

[hansvons]

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17 minutes ago, Slender said:

@Tom1234 hey what about the S1H with all the Leica lenses you could ever want?

It has:

It misses great colour. That's why I went the Leica route. Of course, it's all in the eye of the beholder. Otherwise, the Panasonic S1H is a great offer.

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[hansvons]

1 hour ago, Tom1234 said:

My cinematographer friend has said almost exactly what you have just written.  I have consensus I guess.  Still I would prefer 35mm film. 

Digital filmmaking is a godsend for the craft. It enables young talent, which wasn’t remotely possible when I started. 35mm, or Super16mm for the matter, are super-expensive recording formats that don’t allow for fast turnaround times and are error-prone on many levels. I’ve shot 10 years on celluloid and don’t wish the old times back, on the contrary. Plus, today’s digital cine cameras can create in the right hands content in terms of cinematic quality, which wasn’t possible back then. But for sure, colour, contrast and skin tones are still an area where only a few digital cameras can compete successfully with film - at least in mood and feeling.

[Tom1234]

1 hour ago, Slender said:

@Tom1234 hey what about the S1H with all the Leica lenses you could ever want?

It has:

• 6k ProRes Raw with now all the bells and whistle you can play with in post (raw to log, iso, wb...)
• Atomos Ninja5 is offered for free if you buy one now (at CVP and surely B&H)
• It has an OLPF filter so no moire/alliasing like you may see on still cameras...
• Time code sync port
• 2 x Dual ISO settings
• You can shoot raw (and then convert to log) with as low an ISO you want: money saved on ND filters
• The L mount has a screw to secure adapters (like L to PL) sturdily... sadly no other L mount camera has this
• Flip out screen
• Dual XLR input accessories
• Built In monitor tools like scopes and waveforms
• Triple Rec Button
• A Laaarge top screen with more monitoring options than any other L mount camera (audio levels too)
• Is way more easily rigged (cheaper at least) than Leica cameras (you dont have to bite the LockCircle bullet)
• Built Fan for unlimited record time
• Is compatible with dummy batteries (for D-Tap V-lock for example... or NPF, power banks...) Sonething we are sadly unlikely to see for Leica SL unless you make your own.
• Is Netflix approved and matches with Varicam like twins.
• The list goes on....

 

 

 

Panasonic has a real nice camera. Heartbreaker to leave Leica though if I don't have to.  SL2-s is probably for me.  Good suggestion though.

[Tom1234]

1 hour ago, hansvons said:

Digital filmmaking is a godsend for the craft. It enables young talent, which wasn’t remotely possible when I started. 35mm, or Super16mm for the matter, are super-expensive recording formats that don’t allow for fast turnaround times and are error-prone on many levels. I’ve shot 10 years on celluloid and don’t wish the old times back, on the contrary. Plus, today’s digital cine cameras can create in the right hands content in terms of cinematic quality, which wasn’t possible back then. But for sure, colour, contrast and skin tones are still an area where only a few digital cameras can compete successfully with film - at least in mood and feeling.

So true.  It is a new age of filmmaking.  When I started it was Super-8 film and 16mm.  Still like the colors better of film by far though. 

[Svetozar]

On 3/12/2021 at 2:05 PM, Steven said:

Here’s one i shot while travelling around Colombia last month: 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CL4qncQphox/

Amazing Video @Steven Just love the colors and the vibe of it. I want to add gratitude for your answers as well. They are very informative and useful.

Keep posting more of your videos since I love them  

[Aaron Daniel]

First off, thank you so much for the mention @Steven! Your work is astounding and when I first came to this forum I always looked forward to your insights and posts (and still do 😄) @hansvons, your insights on working with various files and hardware throughout the years has equally been invaluable, and I would also encourage anyone reading this to follow along on your insights. Between our 3 uses and recent tests with the SL2-S body, I think it’s fair to say that this body has many different abilities and can be applied to a vast array of shooting scenarios.

@Tom1234, thank you for quoting my other thread on colouring with the SL2/s, I’ve tried to keep up with it, but it seems to get buried among our other threads here 😅

To stay on topic with your original question, I sadly cannot speak from an indie filmmaker or commercial filmmaker standpoint. As mentioned, my background is solely in wedding filmmaking and photography, with the odd job covering live events and content-creator types of interviews (a la Post Malone here: https://youtu.be/4vIQ_43P07Y). My background is very run and gun and not what I would consider “low budget movie making”… but what I can say is that good filmmaking can be had with any body if sufficiently prepared for (ie - team, auxiliary equipment).

 

All this to say is that yes I believe a low budget film can be made with the Leica SL2-S, especially if it is decked out with the Ninja V and the ~$2million Lock Circle rig pieces 😅 and a team! But of course you can also do this with any body– as I’m sure most of the more experienced filmmakers here can attest to with the film stocks of olden days haha.

 

I think this was alluded to already, but I do think the major drawback is the SL2-S’s ability to fit within the standards of industry hardware and software:

Hardware – it is difficult to rig this body with a lack of dedicated equipment

Software – As much as I believe the ProRes files with the Ninja V (as well as internal files) are good for what I produce, I also understand that dedicated cinema cameras produce files that are more dedicated to industry-standard NLE’s.

 

I’ve yet to touch Avid or Resolve. I’m in Final Cut Pro and the SL2-S files work smoothly for my work. But does this mean other files/bodies are worse? Not at all! Again it depends on what setting you aim to use this piece of beautiful machinery

 

Some quick notes:

• I really believe the SL2-S coupled with a USB-C power bank and Ninja V would make an astounding documentary film camera. It is still relatively subtle, and the files are beautiful.
• I’ve never used autofocus in any of my professional work throughout the years, so I have no bias for or against the Leica AF system. I understand that AF can come in handy in certain situations, but sadly I do not have that experience
• The IBIS is fantastic. This was the biggest improvement I saw right off the bat coming from the Sony system of bodies. I’ve tested the A7siii’s IBIS as well, and it doesn’t compare to Leica’s IBIS. This reason alone could be the tie-breaker if considering between E-mount and L-mount.

 

Who is this camera for:

• From my experience, I believe the SL2-S is for the professional one-man-band.
• I say this because it is capable of producing so much that the individual shooter knows they can handle alone (ie - focusing, IBIS, detailed files, editable files, a large selection of lenses with adapters) and the output is both technically pleasing and spiritually invigorating. Who doesn’t like showing off the red dot 😅?!
• I also say the professional one-man-band because if they had more than one person, if they had a dedicated team, the professional would most likely be budgeting for higher-end cameras to rent out. Cameras that will have dedicated inputs, outputs, file types, and readability that fits the industry norm. It just makes sense to use a tried-and-true cinema camera for bigger budget projects with money on the line. If you find yourself in this boat but using the SL2-S anyway, you are most definitely saying something and making a point about the camera.

 

I believe the professional one-man-band to be:

• The wedding filmmaker or photographer (because they don’t need to fit an industry ecosystem)
• The video/photojournalist that doesn’t need to send off equipment/files for someone else to use
• The photographer/videographer enthusiast
• The collector

 

If an indie filmmaker/DP/production house did end up purchasing this body for use on a low budget film, I don’t believe the film would be the primary reason to buy it– I would assume they wanted the camera for any of the reasons listed above and just, by chance, happened to be working a movie. And even then, this would only happen after agreeing to compromise all the drawbacks of the SL2-S, or they are actively working for Leica 😅

Edited March 14, 2021 by Aaron Daniel

[Slender]

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19 hours ago, hansvons said:

It misses great colour. That's why I went the Leica route. Of course, it's all in the eye of the beholder. Otherwise, the Panasonic S1H is a great offer.

Hmmm, but with Raw you would be free to apply the Log+Lut you want... Most of the hype about Leica's colors is the "out of camera" effect. It looks very good with minimun imput, and that's why I am fed up with reviewers complaining Leica files don't hold up to extreme pushing.... goddamn right they don't need to be pushed if you expose well.

I suspect a decent color grading matching job of Raw files from S1H footage to SL2 would be hard to detect on what most project would be viewed anyway: vimeo and youtube... let's be real.

I was on the CCD side of the Great Leica Civil War when there was the transition from M9 (CCD by Kodak) to M240 (CMOS by CMOSIS)... Now I am on a CMOS by TowerJazz (SL2) and people keep raving about the CMOS by Sony (SL2s). We moved on and got better at color management with our Raw files I can only guess. Even with "simple" 10 bit log you can do some crazy color grading

[hansvons]

5 hours ago, Aaron Daniel said:

All this to say is that yes I believe a low budget film can be made with the Leica SL2-S, especially if it is decked out with the Ninja V and the ~$2million Lock Circle rig pieces 😅 and a team! But of course you can also do this with any body– as I’m sure most of the more experienced filmmakers here can attest to with the film stocks of olden days haha.

I think this was alluded to already, but I do think the major drawback is the SL2-S’s ability to fit within the standards of industry hardware and softwa
😅

I own a Ninja V since it came out because I needed it for a project and used it a couple of days. Since then it was collecting dust until I got the SL2-S. There's a thread on these forums I started with asking folks for recommendations for a cage because I absolutely see your point and got frustrated when researching the market. 

 

@Svetozar directed me to the Smallrig S1H half cage, which is for some reason discontinued. But he provided a link to a reseller who shelved a few of these rigs, so I got one yesterday. I also ordered a Smallrig monitor swivel and a Smallrig HDMI cable with a smaller footprint than the one I have. With the small Rode mic added (which isn't brilliant but ok-ish for ambient background sound), the set-up is done. 

On the Smallrig camera plate, there's a pin sticking out that probably fits into the S1H body but isn't working with the SL2-S. I honed it down. The camera plate is now flush and works as expected. 

The great thing with the Smallrig half-cage is that the Leica's right handle is left in its natural state, with no extra grip required. That, again, keeps weight down and the footprint relatively small. Further, the Smallrig half-cage has a slide-in mechanism which makes it a breeze to switch between stills and video mode. The build quality is excellent!

With the 24-90, this is a tremendous little hand-held cinema-capable film camera for the documentary work (and it's an outstanding stills camera too). 

With a PL-mount adapter and more rigging, a grown-up cine camera can be based on the SL2-S. But as @Aaron Daniel rightfully says, the question remains why not renting a proper cinema camera like an Alexa Mini in the first place.

6 hours ago, Aaron Daniel said:

I also say the professional one-man-band because if they had more than one person, if they had a dedicated team, the professional would most likely be budgeting for higher-end cameras to rent out. Cameras that will have dedicated inputs, outputs, file types, and readability that fits the industry norm. It just makes sense to use a tried-and-true cinema camera for bigger budget projects with money on the line. If you find yourself in this boat but using the SL2-S anyway, you are most definitely saying something and making a point about the camera.

My setup:

 

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[hansvons]

When the camera works as expected, the following most essential thing filmmakers need is an ND Filter. I own a complete set of 4x5.5 ND filters, but they require a full-size matte box, an overkill for the little Leica. I pulled the trigger on the NISI 82 variable ND filter, which, to my joy, fits with some push and the removal of a small pin to turn the filter (which is not required) snuggly in the 24-90 lens' lens hood. The NISI filter allows for ND 18, a 5 stops compensation, and at ISO 400-800 is working for most applications. 

I can't say much about the NISI ND filter yet because I only took a couple of pictures and video sequences yet. But on a sunny day, I couldn't spot IR-pollution on my subjects black t-shirt. Flares look nice so far.

Pictures:

 

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[Tom1234]

29 minutes ago, hansvons said:

With the 24-90, this is a tremendous little hand-held cinema-capable film camera for the documentary work (and it's an outstanding stills camera too). 

With a PL-mount adapter and more rigging, a grown-up cine camera can be based on the SL2-S. But as @Aaron Daniel rightfully says, the question remains why not renting a proper cinema camera like an Alexa Mini in the first place.

My setup:

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Total weight?

[Slender]

Add this on top and you get another anchor point + great handling for low height shots:

https://www.8sinn.com/8sinn-top-handle-pro.html

 

[hansvons]

1 hour ago, Tom1234 said:

Total weight?

A bit less than 2.4 kg, ready to shoot.

 

37 minutes ago, Slender said:

Add this on top and you get another anchor point + great handling for low height shots:

https://www.8sinn.com/8sinn-top-handle-pro.html

 

I find the setup not too heavy to rely solely on the side-grip, no need for a proper handle. YMMV.

[Tom1234]

44 minutes ago, hansvons said:

A bit less than 2.4 kg, ready to shoot.

 

I find the setup not too heavy to rely solely on the side-grip, no need for a proper handle. YMMV.

Does the SL2-S have a fitting to fit that handle?

[hansvons]

4 minutes ago, Tom1234 said:

Does the SL2-S have a fitting to fit that handle?

Please elaborate. Which handle?

[Tom1234]

3 hours ago, hansvons said:

Please elaborate. Which handle?

Sorry I thought I saw a handle in one of your links but I guess not.

[Slender]

47 minutes ago, Tom1234 said:

Sorry I thought I saw a handle in one of your links but I guess not.

If you are refering to the one I liked before (https://www.8sinn.com/8sinn-top-handle-pro.html)

Then no it has bo be attached to its included nato rail, the later you have to srew onto a cage. You could use top handles directly from the cold shoe mount of the camera, but I would never, ever do that.

[simon_hsn]

11 hours ago, hansvons said:

I own a Ninja V since it came out because I needed it for a project and used it a couple of days. Since then it was collecting dust until I got the SL2-S. There's a thread on these forums I started with asking folks for recommendations for a cage because I absolutely see your point and got frustrated when researching the market. 

 

@Svetozar directed me to the Smallrig S1H half cage, which is for some reason discontinued. But he provided a link to a reseller who shelved a few of these rigs, so I got one yesterday. I also ordered a Smallrig monitor swivel and a Smallrig HDMI cable with a smaller footprint than the one I have. With the small Rode mic added (which isn't brilliant but ok-ish for ambient background sound), the set-up is done. 

On the Smallrig camera plate, there's a pin sticking out that probably fits into the S1H body but isn't working with the SL2-S. I honed it down. The camera plate is now flush and works as expected. 

The great thing with the Smallrig half-cage is that the Leica's right handle is left in its natural state, with no extra grip required. That, again, keeps weight down and the footprint relatively small. Further, the Smallrig half-cage has a slide-in mechanism which makes it a breeze to switch between stills and video mode. The build quality is excellent!

With the 24-90, this is a tremendous little hand-held cinema-capable film camera for the documentary work (and it's an outstanding stills camera too). 

With a PL-mount adapter and more rigging, a grown-up cine camera can be based on the SL2-S. But as @Aaron Daniel rightfully says, the question remains why not renting a proper cinema camera like an Alexa Mini in the first place.

My setup:

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

It is so cool to see that more people adopt to this cage. I think I was the first to post it here in the forum and I love it. It is a shame that Smallrig discontinued this particular cage design. 

Here’s my take on that whole camera cage debate: 

- Rigging mirrorless cameras into cages has become much more popular only in recent years. In my opinion it is needed everytime you would either want to rig something heavier, like an external monitor, or more than one accessory, say a monitor and a mic. 

- As for which cage type to chose, my experience is pretty straight forward: 

- Full cages are great for filmmaking only, , because rigging takes a lot of time

- Half-cages are best for all hybrid shooters as you get still very good mounting options and a good grip.  But you can take out the camera quickly and start to shoot photos. The sweet spot in my opinion. It is also most minimal, as you would only need one further handle to get a very stable platform.  

[Tom1234]

5 hours ago, simon_hsn said:

It is so cool to see that more people adopt to this cage. I think I was the first to post it here in the forum and I love it. It is a shame that Smallrig discontinued this particular cage design. 

Here’s my take on that whole camera cage debate: 

- Rigging mirrorless cameras into cages has become much more popular only in recent years. In my opinion it is needed everytime you would either want to rig something heavier, like an external monitor, or more than one accessory, say a monitor and a mic. 

- As for which cage type to chose, my experience is pretty straight forward: 

- Full cages are great for filmmaking only, , because rigging takes a lot of time

- Half-cages are best for all hybrid shooters as you get still very good mounting options and a good grip.  But you can take out the camera quickly and start to shoot photos. The sweet spot in my opinion. It is also most minimal, as you would only need one further handle to get a very stable platform.  

Thank you for such a complete insightful answer on the rig variations.

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Hallo,

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[frame-it]

6 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

Thank you for such a complete insightful answer on the rig variations.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by frame-it

[Svetozar]

On 3/14/2021 at 10:36 PM, simon_hsn said:

It is so cool to see that more people adopt to this cage. I think I was the first to post it here in the forum and I love it. It is a shame that Smallrig discontinued this particular cage design. 

Yes @simon_hsn I saw it from you. And thank you very much for that. Mine cage is also arrived but still waiting to shops open again so that I can get SL2-S finally  

@hansvonsGlad that I was helpful. It looks very nice.

As @simon_hsnsaid I also think it is best for run and gun hybrid shooters. And that quick release plate is such big plus I am looking forward to use.

Just wondering why SmallRig discontinued since it is such a great half-cage.