Leica SL2-S for Independent Low Budget Movie Making?

[Tom1234]

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6 minutes ago, Steven said:

They do give a unique look BUT

While I see a huge quality difference FOR STILLS when using an M lens on a Leica body as opposed to another brand, that difference is much less noticeable in video application. 

I have been using my M lenses with my Sony A1, and the image is sometimes far better than on the SL2S. Where we start having a problem is with color, where Leica is almost always better. And colourists can say what they want, but 10BIT 422 doesnt change anything. Some think that because they can record in log 10bit 422 you can match any camera to what you want. That's not true. There are some scenarios, especially in low light, where my A1 will never be able to match the colours of my SL2S, however much post production you put into it. 

My point earlier was that I dont see why pros would use an SL2S so much. Of course its possible and some do. But if you have to MF, you usually have a crew. If you have a crew, you have way better options (even to use with M lenses) than an SL2S. So why !!! And if you dont have a crew, you usually want AF, so not an SL2S.

You solved the problem by using real film.  This too is my choice.  Film had something perfected that video has not yet achieved.  To me better color.  And also the background grain texture is an added element.  Texture is a classic part of Architecture and Painting that I hate to loose to video's technical perfection.  Even the too perfect video special effects, all of which look contrived, thus do not convince me when watching a movie, that I am in a real world dream reality, instead video gives me a fake too perfect reality that immediately breaks the "suspension of disbelief" that an audience needs.  Here here!  Cheers! Bru Ha!

[Tom1234]

8 minutes ago, frame-it said:

they would, and our minds are "trained" for 24fps, and a 180degree shutter angle..

So true… it would be a different world if early film went from 18 fps silents to 30 fps sound but they choose 24fps which turned out to be a great artistic recording-playing speed.  Some other reasons in my other posts on audience dream state.

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[Steven]

1 hour ago, frame-it said:

well, that's your opinion.. personally i dont care..the OP was curious about short films so i posted a few links, whatever./😇

Of course it's my opinion! As it is the case for everything I say, in this forum, or outside this forum. When I say something that is not my opinion, I usually disclaim it first. 

And it's great that you posted the videos. My comment was not aimed at you, your contribution is actually very welcome (my opinion, again). Thanks for taking the time to post these example that, in my opinion, back up my opinion on the SL line for video. Didn't mean to come across as rude the first time. 

Cheers 😇

[Tom1234]

Well the video reviews are what they call a "mixed bag". 

https://www.newsshooter.com/2015/11/03/test-video-leica-sl-4k-camera-tested-by-tim-arasheban-and-cinoflex/

https://www.eoshd.com/news/leica-sl-hands-on-first-impressions-review-from-a-video-perspective/

Overall they might summarize to your view Steve.  

Apparently at a similar price the best Hollywood cameras are available also.

[Steven]

2 minutes ago, Tom1234 said:

Well the video reviews are what they call a "mixed bag". 

https://www.newsshooter.com/2015/11/03/test-video-leica-sl-4k-camera-tested-by-tim-arasheban-and-cinoflex/

https://www.eoshd.com/news/leica-sl-hands-on-first-impressions-review-from-a-video-perspective/

Overall they might summarize to your view Steve.  

Apparently at a similar price the best Hollywood cameras are available also.

If you only need video with no AF, the best price/quality you ration you can find on the market is the BPCCC 6K pro. Real cinema camera, amazing colors, best codecs, any lens can be adapted to it and it comes with Da vinci for free. If you need AF and occasional stills, the A7SIII is the next best thing. 

The SL2S is, in my opinion i précise, first and foremost a stills camera (an amazing one, better than the SL2, in my opinion) and the video side is bonus. It can take, in my opinion, amazing videos. 

Here’s one i shot while travelling around Colombia last month: 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CL4qncQphox/

[Tom1234]

9 minutes ago, Steven said:

If you only need video with no AF, the best price/quality you ration you can find on the market is the BPCCC 6K pro. Real cinema camera, amazing colors, best codecs, any lens can be adapted to it and it comes with Da vinci for free. If you need AF and occasional stills, the A7SIII is the next best thing. 

The SL2S is, in my opinion i précise, first and foremost a stills camera (an amazing one, better than the SL2, in my opinion) and the video side is bonus. It can take, in my opinion, amazing videos. 

Here’s one i shot while travelling around Colombia last month: 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CL4qncQphox/

Bet the BPCCC 6K pro does not handle the Leica-M lenses so well.  Last time I contacted Black Magic they only might have handled down to 50mm on a not full frame camera.  

I saw your video and like it and envy your ability to get people you don't know to stand still for a photograph.  The video looks a bit color thin to me, is that 8bit?  Think I read only 10 bit out the hdmi port.  Well this was my old irritation for film scanning… the higher bit rates make MUCH higher quality scans so I wouldn't even consider the 8bit limited crayon box of colors.  

Since the total cost of a Leica movie rig is the same as some of the best cameras on the market I expect the SL2-S will remain a really really great consumer camera but not capture the professionals who have already bought into a history of other cameras, lenses, and codec's. 

[Steven]

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2 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

Bet the BPCCC 6K pro does not handle the Leica-M lenses so well

Bet you're wrong about this ! at least if you remove the M off of your sentence. 

2 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

The video looks a bit color thin to me, is that 8bit?

 

[Steven]

2 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

saw your video and like it and envy your ability to get people you don't know to stand still for a photograph.  The video looks a bit color thin to me, is that 8bit?  Think I read only 10 bit out the hdmi port.

Thank you. 

10 BIT 422 HLG, 4K, 24FPS, all Internal. 

Color thin? Not sure what you mean by thin ? 

Most likely, though, it was a colour grade decision, not the camera. 

 

[Tom1234]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

Bet you're wrong about this ! at least if you remove the M off of your sentence. 

 

Thank you.  I am glad to be wrong about this. Appreciate you sharing your research with me.

[Tom1234]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

Thank you. 

10 BIT 422 HLG, 4K, 24FPS, all Internal. 

Color thin? Not sure what you mean by thin ? 

Most likely, though, it was a colour grade decision, not the camera. 

 

Everyones SL2-S video I've seen, and even stills for that matter, do not seem to have as much saturation as like the M10 or M9.  I really liked that deeper Euro look.  I am not saying it is bad, just not the thrill I was hoping for... just does not get me emotionally as much. 

[Tom1234]

Steve: So what do you think of the Komodo?

https://www.red.com/komodo

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1598390-REG/red_digital_cinema_710_0333_komodo_6k_digital_cinema.html

[Slender]

@Steven@Tom1234

https://www.leitz-cine.com/productions

You can select M0.8 in "produtcs:" and see all the productions that uses M lenses for their films.

Some in depth article about this here:

https://www.afcinema.com/About-the-Leica-M-0-8-lenses.html?lang=fr

Leica's own commercial shot by Dominic Nahr is fairly good looking and exemplifies what the SL2(s) should be used for, a best of both world hybrid for the photographer who wants to shoot beautiful things by himself. You can always rig it with monitors, recorders, XLR pre amps.... but it defeats the portability.
 

 

[Tom1234]

Some great practical information about sl2-s color here:

 

The color looks thin (not saturated) but that seems to be true in all low light cameras that I've seen featured on the web.  Scroll down to find the Internal recording verses External recording using an Atomos Ninji V - the external feed to the Atomos gives deeper color - maybe the bit rate is higher?

[ruskkyle]

I don’t agree at all that AF is essential for solo shooter / documentary work. I’ve never used autofocus. It comes down to practising your technique.

[hansvons]

25 minutes ago, ruskkyle said:

I don’t agree at all that AF is essential for solo shooter / documentary work. I’ve never used autofocus. It comes down to practising your technique.

Agreed. I've spent the early 90ies as a news gathering cameraman. Long day solo shooting, run and gun, no AF, demanding clients. The SL2-S is my first AF capable camera that can shoot video. I find the AF useless for video, since focus selection and focus racking is integral part of the storytelling which I rarely want a machine to decide. In the stills world, however, it's a godsend. AF enables sharp point-and-forget photos which is exactly what I want (I never check shots on the rear screen).

[Steven]

36 minutes ago, ruskkyle said:

I don’t agree at all that AF is essential for solo shooter / documentary work. I’ve never used autofocus. It comes down to practising your technique.

I am not saying it is essential. I am saying that most solo shooter will logically go the AF route. 

[Steven]

13 hours ago, Slender said:

@Steven@Tom1234

https://www.leitz-cine.com/productions

You can select M0.8 in "produtcs:" and see all the productions that uses M lenses for their films.

Some in depth article about this here:

https://www.afcinema.com/About-the-Leica-M-0-8-lenses.html?lang=fr

Leica's own commercial shot by Dominic Nahr is fairly good looking and exemplifies what the SL2(s) should be used for, a best of both world hybrid for the photographer who wants to shoot beautiful things by himself. You can always rig it with monitors, recorders, XLR pre amps.... but it defeats the portability.
 

 

Very beautiuful film. Some parts of it at least.

[ruskkyle]

6 minutes ago, Steven said:

I am not saying it is essential. I am saying that most solo shooter will logically go the AF route. 

Fair enough. But I still think AF for video is something being massively pushed by the vlogger generation as something that must be present and work perfectly in any camera to be even considered viable.

But the truth, at least for anyone used to using manual/cine lenses on bigger cameras, is that in a situation where it is critical you nail the shot first time - like documentary - you are going to trust your own hand-eye coordination over the camera’s brain every time!

Well, that’s how I see it anyway.

[hansvons]

1 hour ago, Tom1234 said:

The color looks thin (not saturated) but that seems to be true in all low light cameras that I've seen featured on the web.  Scroll down to find the Internal recording verses External recording using an Atomos Ninji V - the external feed to the Atomos gives deeper color - maybe the bit rate is higher?

I can assure you that the SL2-S colour is in no way thin. In my experience, the SL2-S colour is the best I’ve seen on any DSLR-style camera. That is highly subjective, but when taking an Alexa as the benchmark, the Leica isn’t far off. The internal codec, of course, is “somewhat” thin, but it’s not scaring at all. On the contrary, it shows texture which I can well live with. Recording with an Atomos on 422 ProRes changes that. The shots are cleaner, but the whole truth will be seen when eventually ProRes RAW will be enabled, and green screen work is on the table.

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Hallo,

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[hansvons]

 

Steven, I can only underline what you are stating in your video about good manual glass and its value retention. When investing in a RedOne package back in 2008, I did precisely that. I got myself a Zeiss Super Speeds set that I sold 2 years ago at a significant premium. I agree with what you are saying about what a camera body should cost if you are not in the rental business or are doing occasional films that are either for your self or client work on a budget (what I’m doing more lately for the environmental movement). In that case, renting would be too expensive and owning a big gun much too costly.

Today’s video cameras can shoot in a quality that wasn’t conceivable at that price point 5 years ago.