Review: The New Leica APO-Summicron-M 35mm F2 ASPH.

[jonoslack]

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14 minutes ago, hey_giulio said:

Wow! That is for sure a very detailed and interesting comment and explanation!

Thanks for the additional clarifications, Mr. Slack, and by the way I really appreciate your work.

Considering your experience, which between the M-APO50 and the M-APO35 represents a bigger step forward compared to their non-apo counterpart (i.e. the summicron 50 and the summicron 35 asph, respectively)?

Thanks again.

Best

Hi there

Thank you for the kind words. 

That is a really tricky question, not least because it’s some years since I had either the 50 or 35 Summicron. 

But I think that the Apo lenses are pretty much an equal step forwards over their non APO counterparts. Bearing in mind that the 35 summicron Asph was already a step ahead of the 50 summicron. 

But the two APOs are both wonderful lenses. 

Best

[hey_giulio]

58 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

That is a really tricky question, not least because it’s some years since I had either the 50 or 35 Summicron. 

But I think that the Apo lenses are pretty much an equal step forwards over their non APO counterparts. Bearing in mind that the 35 summicron Asph was already a step ahead of the 50 summicron. 

But the two APOs are both wonderful lenses. 

Thanks!

[astrostl]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Bearing in mind that the 35 summicron Asph was already a step ahead of the 50 summicron. 

In what ways do you find the 35 Cron to be a step ahead of the 50 Cron? DigLloyd (viciously technical reviews) rips the 35 apart while giving the 50 a good grade.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, astrostl said:

In what ways do you find the 35 Cron to be a step ahead of the 50 Cron? DigLloyd (viciously technical reviews) rips the 35 apart while giving the 50 a good grade.

The 50mm is a much older design than the 35mm asph.

Maybe that's what he meant? 

[dkmoore]

9 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Obviously a new Hermès collection in the making. 

Orange silk jackets with rubber chicken shit epaulets will be burning up the fashion show runways this spring!

 

Wait, do you know where I can buy one of those Hermes leather camera straps? Seriously...

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, dkmoore said:

Wait, do you know where I can buy one of those Hermes leather camera straps? Seriously...

https://leicastoremiami.com/products/arte-di-mano-classic-neck-strap-barenia-tan?variant=992829832
 

 

[jonoslack]

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11 hours ago, astrostl said:

In what ways do you find the 35 Cron to be a step ahead of the 50 Cron? DigLloyd (viciously technical reviews) rips the 35 apart while giving the 50 a good grade.

 

10 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

The 50mm is a much older design than the 35mm asph.

Maybe that's what he meant? 

HI There

I’m afraid I was making assumptions based on:

1 age of design (thanks Steve)

2 35 has aspherical elements 50 doesn’t

3 reports of users (so many people love the 35 ‘cron - especially professionals)

But that’s not much of a reason and my personal experience of the lenses is a long time ago, and never with the two together

As for Lloyd - blasting the 35 is right up his street (because so many people swear by it). It’s an interesting conundrum to decide who is right, when someone provides a blistering technical review of a lens that is almost universally praised . . . . 

[dkmoore]

7 hours ago, jdlaing said:

https://leicastoremiami.com/products/arte-di-mano-classic-neck-strap-barenia-tan?variant=992829832
 

 

I was only joking, ha ha. I wouldn’t mind one of the original Hermès straps from the special editions. 

[astrostl]

8 hours ago, jonoslack said:

As for Lloyd - blasting the 35 is right up his street (because so many people swear by it). It’s an interesting conundrum to decide who is right, when someone provides a blistering technical review of a lens that is almost universally praised . . . . 

I certainly find him to be harsh but not unfair, and there are many examples of Leica lenses he has greatly praised (e.g. the 18/21/24 SEMs, all the 28s, and the 50 APO). I think way to respond to a blistering technical review is a review that correctly surveys the same characteristics in question. Everything he criticizes is based upon and backed up by imagery.

[jonoslack]

2 minutes ago, astrostl said:

I certainly find him to be harsh but not unfair, and there are many examples of Leica lenses he has greatly praised (e.g. the 18/21/24 SEMs, all the 28s, and the 50 APO). I think way to respond to a blistering technical review is a review that correctly surveys the same characteristics in question. Everything he criticizes is based upon and backed up by imagery.

Well, I wouldn't question his technical know-how,  not for a second. I don't like the way that he does wild teasers to try to lure people in to pay the fee, and of course, every lens has some quirk or other which you can demonstrate (and then excoriate), it's sometimes a question of making a mountain out of a molehill (but I agree, he always demonstrates his molehills extremely clearly with backup evidence). 

But I return to my point, which is that if the 35 Summicron Asph is such a loved and accepted lens, with a huge body of visibly great photographs taken with it . . . . . . . can it be so very bad?

[LeicaR10]

Jono,   You are quite right, the 35 Summicron Asph is definitely not a bad lens.  Each lens has pros and cons, yet many photographers seem to forget...it is all about the photograph.  Plus, IMO the best photographs are those that make a viewer;  Stop, Look, Think and Feel something about that moment in time.  r/ Mark

[astrostl]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Well, I wouldn't question his technical know-how,  not for a second. I don't like the way that he does wild teasers to try to lure people in to pay the fee, and of course, every lens has some quirk or other which you can demonstrate (and then excoriate), it's sometimes a question of making a mountain out of a molehill (but I agree, he always demonstrates his molehills extremely clearly with backup evidence). 

But I return to my point, which is that if the 35 Summicron Asph is such a loved and accepted lens, with a huge body of visibly great photographs taken with it . . . . . . . can it be so very bad?

Teasers: I can see that. I ended up paying as a result, I'm glad I did, and I don't think I'd be paying Sean Reid too if it weren't for the experience.

As for it being so very bad, I think it is a matter of context. His context is one of future-ready, meticulous execution of landscape shots with edge-to-edge excellence. So when he dogs the 35 Cron it is 1) in that context and 2) relative to its peers. e.g. "If you care about the same stuff I do, or simply want to know that you've got the technical best in a given peer group, why pay $3700 for a 255g Leica 35/2 when you can pay $1150 for a 240g ZEISS 35/2 with superior optics?" (my summary take, not an actual quote)

I'd point to his actual quote on the 2021 Noctilux 50 1.2: "it replicates the classic look of the original, with a dreamy smooth look which Leica terms an “impressionist aesthetic”. Thus, the 50/1.2 is a lens created purely for the way it 'draws'; it is not designed for technical performance, and so approaching it that way would be inappropriate when evaluating its appeal." If someone said they want the 35 Cron just because they like the brand, or the way it draws, or enjoy its flaws, etc. I don't expect he'd have any grievance.

I love your reviews too BTW, and hope to see all of them in the LHSA Viewfinder Magazine!

Edited March 11, 2021 by astrostl

[Guest]

13 hours ago, jonoslack said:

 

HI There

I’m afraid I was making assumptions based on:

1 age of design (thanks Steve)

2 35 has aspherical elements 50 doesn’t

3 reports of users (so many people love the 35 ‘cron - especially professionals)

But that’s not much of a reason and my personal experience of the lenses is a long time ago, and never with the two together

As for Lloyd - blasting the 35 is right up his street (because so many people swear by it). It’s an interesting conundrum to decide who is right, when someone provides a blistering technical review of a lens that is almost universally praised . . . . 

Do not subscribe to review sites and never will as there are plenty of good free reviews but quite like reading his free bits which played a part along with other reviewers in me buying the 50mm summicrom V5 and the zeiss 35mm f1.4 distagon both of which i love using.

Anyway its good to get a mix of opinions on various lenses including yours of course.

[roma]

9 hours ago, astrostl said:

why pay $3700 for a 255g Leica 35/2 when you can pay $1150 for a 240g ZEISS 35/2 with superior optics?"

It's more than just optics. A great deal of "success" is attributed to the 35mm ASPH for handling and overall package that you get in such a small lens. Handling of this thing is just perfect. I, personally, have never handled a better lens (tried many). Also, with V1, you get a variety of hood options, which is important to some of us.

That's why I'm hanging on to this little thing. After years of using it, my hands know exactly where to go and what to do. It's a long-lasting relationship 😀

[Mahesh]

On 3/9/2021 at 3:51 PM, jonoslack said:

Hi Steven

Maybe a metre or 1.1/2 They are cropped a bit - It is a cockerel after all, and has spurs and I was lying on the ground!

Good Fun though . . If you’re interested I did some chicken shots when reviewing the 28 Lux about 10 years ago!

https://www.slack.co.uk/2015/28_Summilux.html

They caused a bit of a stir at the time

 

This is a bit off topic for this thread but is it true that the vignette with 28 Lux will always remain a bit? I'm trying out this lens and I had hard time removing it completely. I've selected the correct lens profile in lightroom and using on M240.

[jonoslack]

17 hours ago, astrostl said:

Teasers: I can see that. I ended up paying as a result, I'm glad I did, and I don't think I'd be paying Sean Reid too if it weren't for the experience.

As for it being so very bad, I think it is a matter of context. His context is one of future-ready, meticulous execution of landscape shots with edge-to-edge excellence. So when he dogs the 35 Cron it is 1) in that context and 2) relative to its peers. e.g. "If you care about the same stuff I do, or simply want to know that you've got the technical best in a given peer group, why pay $3700 for a 255g Leica 35/2 when you can pay $1150 for a 240g ZEISS 35/2 with superior optics?" (my summary take, not an actual quote)

I'd point to his actual quote on the 2021 Noctilux 50 1.2: "it replicates the classic look of the original, with a dreamy smooth look which Leica terms an “impressionist aesthetic”. Thus, the 50/1.2 is a lens created purely for the way it 'draws'; it is not designed for technical performance, and so approaching it that way would be inappropriate when evaluating its appeal." If someone said they want the 35 Cron just because they like the brand, or the way it draws, or enjoy its flaws, etc. I don't expect he'd have any grievance.

I love your reviews too BTW, and hope to see all of them in the LHSA Viewfinder Magazine!

HI There

Okay - let's forget about Lloyd, because he is what he is, but let's address this

"why pay $3700 for a 255g Leica 35/2 when you can pay $1150 for a 240g ZEISS 35/2 with superior optics?"

I haven't really used either of these lenses, but there are various possible answers:

First of all Leica R10's answer above

18 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

Jono,   You are quite right, the 35 Summicron Asph is definitely not a bad lens.  Each lens has pros and cons, yet many photographers seem to forget...it is all about the photograph.  Plus, IMO the best photographs are those that make a viewer;  Stop, Look, Think and Feel something about that moment in time.  r/ Mark

Which basically means "I like using it and I get good pictures" the two sides may or may not be linked.

But think about this - if you're going to set yourself up as a reviewer - then you are going to concentrate on MEASURABLE characteristics of a lens or camera - in this instance either MTF curves or a standard setup (usually at 2 metres or thereabouts) where you can compare sharpness, colour etc. etc. You should look at the 'superior optics' remark of yours within  this context - and it brings up a question - How do you define 'superior optics' . . . well, it would appear to be because it has good MTF and sharpness in a controlled test setup.

But it really doesn't (at all) reflect LeicaR10's remarks about it being 'all about the photograph'. But worse than that - Lloyd as you said is complimentary about the 18/20/24 SEM lenses and most people would subscribe to that, but when I had the 24, I tested considerably at 20 metres and found it to be very soft at the corners - Leica confirmed it was 'within spec' Most testers wouldn't test a lens at that distance (too complicated to organise properly and repeatably). 

Me? Well, you might be surprised to hear that I really do a lot of testing - and much of it as near to infinity as possible (where the rear element is closest to the sensor and most edge troubles will occur). But I don't publish it much because I think it's very difficult to read properly (and rather boring as well). I use it to inform my opinion about something . . . but what I'm really interested in is how the image actually looks - and that's a function of lots of things you can't really measure:

Bokeh

Roll-off between in and out of focus

acuity

etc. etc. 

What I try to do in my articles, rather than a severe technical approach is to give a proper feel for how a lens will look (draw if you like) and I do that by shooting at different apertures and different distances - then, hopefully the reader can draw their own conclusions.

There isn't a right way of doing this, but back to the Leica35/2 vs the Zeiss 35/2 - I don't doubt Lloyds results, but I question whether they have much relevance to which lens you actually decide to get. 

Sorry - too long!

best

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by jonoslack

[scott kirkpatrick]

8 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

....

near to infinity as possible (where the rear element is closest to the lens and most edge troubles will occur).

 

sensor

[jonoslack]

12 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

sensor

thanks Scott. fixed!

[jonoslack]

4 hours ago, Mahesh said:

This is a bit off topic for this thread but is it true that the vignette with 28 Lux will always remain a bit? I'm trying out this lens and I had hard time removing it completely. I've selected the correct lens profile in lightroom and using on M240.

HI Mahesh

I've just looked through 5 years worth of images with this lens and I think you can deal with the vignetting if you want to, but I normally find a bit of vignetting is a good thing. Either way I've certainly never found it a problem,

Best

Jono

 

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[mmradman]

Not sure why is suddenly Summilux 28 brough into this thread, it is a beutiful lens at any F stop and vignete at f1.4 is not an issue for typical scene with some interest in it especially in poor light.  I accept it may become an issue if trying to shoot unifromly lit white wall - not even Digi Lloyd [Chambers] would do that.

Dealing with vigneting is easy, just close the F stop, say f5.6 or f8 and you get even exposerure across the frame.