Why ONE lens shows TWO frame lines

[Dennis]

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I don't know how many of you are seeing benefits to see two frame lines every time we put a lens on. I would love to buy digital M bodies with a la carte programe. I wouldn't hesitate to buy an M10-R with ONLY individual 28, 35, 50 frame lines. And If I shoot with a 21 or 24mm for example, it would be amazing to shoot in a way that doesn't show me frame line at all. Is this possible? I guess is not be possible, because the RF mechanism. 

 

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[UliWer]

There has been an á la carte Option for the MP for film to install the traditional 35/50/90 frames from the M2 which avoided the double frames. They don't offer this option anymore as far as I can see.

You might ask Customer Care if they can change your finder. As the mechanics are more or less the same for any M since the M2 it could be possible that they fulfll your single frame wish. Though I doubt it will be possible that you will have an option for no frames at all with 21 or 24mm.

Edited January 28, 2021 by UliWer

[Anbaric]

I think to get no framelines with the modern ultrawide lenses, which as far as I recall bring up the 28 and 90 frames, you'd have to mask out both these frames and would therefore no longer see them when you mounted a 28mm or 90mm lens.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Anbaric

[earleygallery]

There are 3 masks in the viewfinder assembly so to show 6 framelines (28/35/50/75/90/135) they have to have two frames per mask.

[Anbaric]

Leica could always copy Fuji (sacrilege!), who use LCD framelines in the optical viewfinders of their RF-style X-series cameras. These could be keyed to the 6-bit coding of current lenses, or manually selectable if necessary, and there'd be no need for frameline pairs...

[Dennis]

2 hours ago, UliWer said:

There has been an á la carte Option for the MP for film to install the traditional 35/50/90 frames from the M2 which avoided the double frames. They don't offer this option anymore as far as I can see.

You might ask Customer Care if they can change your finder. 

Yeep, a la carte option is for film only. But ask, why not?

2 hours ago, UliWer said:

Though I doubt it will be possible that you will have an option for no frames at all with 21 or 24mm.

this is level two request 

1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

I think to get no framelines with the modern ultrawide lenses, which as far as I recall bring up the 28 and 90 frames, you'd have to mask out both these frames and would therefore no longer see them when you mounted a 28mm or 90mm lens.

Got it. For example, 24 and 21mm lens which frame lines show? 28+90?

1 hour ago, earleygallery said:

There are 3 masks in the viewfinder assembly so to show 6 framelines (28/35/50/75/90/135) they have to have two frames per mask.

Got it. One can just tape some lines, I guess. I guess is very difficult to do that, disarm, recalibrate etc ... But wow, what relief would be.

1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

Leica could always copy Fuji (sacrilege!), who use LCD framelines in the optical viewfinders of their RF-style X-series cameras. These could be keyed to the 6-bit coding of current lenses, or manually selectable if necessary, and there'd be no need for frameline pairs...

I didn't know it. 

I love almost everything about Leica M, and I know that things are like this for some reason. But I can say, without doubt, that I prefer to shoot with 50mm on an M3 rather than on an M10.   

[Exodies]

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It should be simple to remove framelines for 21 and 24mm - switch off the illumination.

[Dennis]

9 minutes ago, Exodies said:

It should be simple to remove framelines for 21 and 24mm - switch off the illumination.

How? Compose with the camera off, then turn it on? 😱

 

[Exodies]

3 minutes ago, Dennis said:

How? Compose with the camera off, then turn it on? 😱

 

Well no, I meant easy for Leica to do. The frame line illumination is surely switched on by firmware

[jdlaing]

45 minutes ago, Exodies said:

Well no, I meant easy for Leica to do. The frame line illumination is surely switched on by firmware

The LED illumination is turned on and off by a simple switch. 

[Dennis]

1 hour ago, Exodies said:

The frame line illumination is surely switched on by firmware

This sound a great plan for my next 21mm 🙂 But first, let's talk to Leica

[Exodies]

5 hours ago, jdlaing said:

The LED illumination is turned on and off by a simple switch. 

Of course, but does the switch send an interrupt to the processor or simply connect the battery to the led?

[Anbaric]

10 hours ago, Dennis said:

Got it. For example, 24 and 21mm lens which frame lines show? 28+90?

Actually what I wrote wasn't quite right. I believe modern 21mm lenses bring up the 28mm framelines, but 24mm lenses bring up 35/135 framelines on most recent Leicas. The exception is the M8, which actually has 24mm framelines, paired with 35mm. But of course the M8 is a crop sensor camera, so the 24mm lens is no longer that wide.Third party 24mm lenses may do something different. Incidentally, vintage Super Angulons from the M3 era bring up the 50/75 framelines on modern cameras. The M3 didn't have anything wider than the 50 framelines, which were visible all the time, and 75mm framelines and lenses did not yet exist.

[a.noctilux]

😇

Timeout of LED illumination frames DO the trick.

When I use my M with LED illuminated framelines, this feature is welcome to "judge the composition" with any lens.

[jdlaing]

7 hours ago, Exodies said:

Of course, but does the switch send an interrupt to the processor or simply connect the battery to the led?

Simply connects battery and bulb.

[mike3996]

I think there's a bunch of legacy reasons (accumulated over  decades) why there won't be a solution to this problem. To me it's not a problem, it's just yet another attractive effect of the mechanism.

The lenses use a metal tongue to physically push a lever that will adjust the framelines. The lenses' tongues so far have three different positions: two different positions and a "no" position I guess. It is physically coupled to the frame preview selector which the user can use to override what the lens sets.

This legacy baggage also dictates why there must be two framelines at once. The 28mm and 90mm lenses share the same tongue so physically they're the same to the eyes and mechanics of the frameline system.

If Leica were to make digital enhancements to this system, for example selecting single frameline based on the 6-bit code, this physical setup would still exist, levers and selectors and all but they'd do nothing. Besides, the framelines are mechanical, physical thingies so if a digital solution were considered, it might be a tough affair to arrange inside the camera.

M240 lost the preview selector and people were angry.

At best, because the frameline illumination is done using artificial light (a bad move in my opinion) there could be an extra  option in the menus for little cost: "framelines: white/red/off".

Edited January 30, 2021 by mike3996

[Dennis]

8 hours ago, mike3996 said:

I think there's a bunch of legacy reasons (accumulated over  decades) why there won't be a solution to this problem. To me it's not a problem, it's just yet another attractive effect of the mechanism.

The lenses use a metal tongue to physically push a lever that will adjust the framelines. The lenses' tongues so far have three different positions: two different positions and a "no" position I guess. It is physically coupled to the frame preview selector which the user can use to override what the lens sets.

This legacy baggage also dictates why there must be two framelines at once. The 28mm and 90mm lenses share the same tongue so physically they're the same to the eyes and mechanics of the frameline system.

If Leica were to make digital enhancements to this system, for example selecting single frameline based on the 6-bit code, this physical setup would still exist, levers and selectors and all but they'd do nothing. Besides, the framelines are mechanical, physical thingies so if a digital solution were considered, it might be a tough affair to arrange inside the camera.

M240 lost the preview selector and people were angry.

At best, because the frameline illumination is done using artificial light (a bad move in my opinion) there could be an extra  option in the menus for little cost: "framelines: white/red/off".

Thank you for your explanation, I appreciate it.

8 hours ago, mike3996 said:

At best, because the frameline illumination is done using artificial light (a bad move in my opinion) there could be an extra  option in the menus for little cost: "framelines: white/red/off".

This would be great and I guess helpful.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Dennis

[jaapv]

There  used to be a Leica service to remove framelines by replacing a mask with a single-frameline one (specifically 50/75). I don't know whether they still do it.

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[epand56]

On 1/28/2021 at 10:25 PM, UliWer said:

Though I doubt it will be possible that you will have an option for no frames at all with 21 or 24mm

Isn't the 21mm frame out of the view finder already?

[Dennis]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

There  used to be a Leica service to remove framelines by replacing a mask with a single-frameline one (specifically 50/75). I don't know whether they still do it.

Hope than yes, I'll figure out.

3 hours ago, epand56 said:

Isn't the 21mm frame out of the view finder already?

Yes, more reasons to don't have other frame lines in the way.