S4 product recommendation

[Einst_Stein]

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18 minutes ago, BernardC said:

if it can be done cheaply.

Leica? You mean, it is impossible?

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[BernardC]

1 hour ago, Einst_Stein said:

Leica? You mean, it is impossible?

I should have worded that differently! I meant that they could possibly make an "S4" SLR for little additional R&D cost, beyond the large amount that it will cost them to develop a new mirrorless medium format. The camera itself won't be cheap. It's not a cheap camera to build/support, just like any professional DSLR. Really, it's amazing that it's only 2-to-3 times more than a 1dx, when you consider that the 1dx must sell 100x more units.

[Einst_Stein]

I can’t find S mount specs. I am hoping it somewhat close L mount. If so, then a S format sensor in a body with L mount would be quick and clean!   I mean, conceptually, just modify S lenses with L lens mount. 

[shanefking]

17 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said:

I can’t find S mount specs. I am hoping it somewhat close L mount. If so, then a S format sensor in a body with L mount would be quick and clean!   I mean, conceptually, just modify S lenses with L lens mount. 

Its a cool idea but the different sensor size and distance from the mount makes L to S compatibility difficult, to say the least.  
 

I think a similar idea was discussed earlier in this thread 

[Einst_Stein]

I found some numbers.

S has flange distance and mount diameter around 53/66.5: L mount 20/51.6.

Meaning L mount diameter is not large enough to pass all the light from S lens.

Flange distance is not a problem, just insert the spacer.

For reference, Contax 645 is 64/68.

 

[BernardC]

Have a look inside an L-Mount camera. You'll see that the electronic contacts are be in the way of a larger sensor.

That's why we were speculating earlier about a new bigger mount that could accept an L-Mount step-down adapter. There was a blurry screen capture from a Leica presentation that possibly showed such a concept, or maybe not. We will only know when Leica is ready. In the meanwhile, don't make any plans based on internet speculation!

[Einst_Stein]

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3 hours ago, BernardC said:

a Leica presentation that possibly showed such a concept, or maybe not. 

My hope is ambiguous, I like the idea of a mirrorless Aith S sensor, but I don’t like the idea if it brings down the current S.

The current S is good enough for me. I don’t care what others want. Hey, leave us alone, why don’t they go to Hasselblad or Fujifilm!

[Chaemono]

A mirrorless S4 with the S3 sensor and IBIS will be the camera to end all GAS…together with the M11 Monochrom, the SL3 with the M11 sensor, and an M12 with the M11 sensor, a slightly thicker body if necessary, and IBIS. The competition will then be left behind which isn’t the case today IMO. The Z7 with some M lenses and the SL2-S reduced the GAS for an M11 considerably, I think.

[mgrayson3]

7 hours ago, Chaemono said:

A mirrorless S4 with the S3 sensor and IBIS will be the camera to end all GAS…together with the M11 Monochrom, the SL3 with the M11 sensor, and an M12 with the M11 sensor, a slightly thicker body if necessary, and IBIS. The competition will then be left behind which isn’t the case today IMO. The Z7 with some M lenses and the SL2-S reduced the GAS for an M11 considerably, I think.

As Plato said, "Only the dead have seen the end of GAS."

(Ok, General MacArthur said it was Plato, but the original source doesn't seem to exist.)

[John Smith]

12 hours ago, Chaemono said:

A mirrorless S4 with the S3 sensor and IBIS will be the camera to end all GAS…together with the M11 Monochrom, the SL3 with the M11 sensor, and an M12 with the M11 sensor, a slightly thicker body if necessary, and IBIS. The competition will then be left behind which isn’t the case today IMO. The Z7 with some M lenses and the SL2-S reduced the GAS for an M11 considerably, I think.

Seems that the technological curve has flattened out. I still have an M10R, for instance, and have no desire for an M11. I'm not sure what Leica can do to really improve the SL2, except maybe put in the M11 sensor. But I'll probably pass on that, too. It's not the big of a leap. I am trading in my wife's CL kit for a Q2. Other than that, I don't expect to buy anything this coming year.

[Einst_Stein]

Perhaps the biggest impact of Fujifilm GFX technology is bringing down the price, or, flatten the price difference across sensor size.Also the camera body size and weight. 

I heard a lot of talk comparing GFX with FF: Leica SL, Nikon Z, Canon R. Etc.  Camera body is not longer a reason not to take larger format. The camera body and lens system combination means more. 

[Stuart Richardson]

On 12/22/2022 at 4:03 PM, Einst_Stein said:

The current S is good enough for me. I don’t care what others want. Hey, leave us alone, why don’t they go to Hasselblad or Fujifilm!

They did. The S is hanging on by a thread.

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, Einst_Stein said:

I heard a lot of talk comparing GFX with FF: Leica SL, Nikon Z, Canon R. Etc.

My dealer tells me that the GFX sells almost exclusively to "full frame" (A7r) customers, not to customers who already own medium format systems, or to professionals. The overall ownership experience is very similar: the body is a little more expensive (depending on current promotions), but lenses for GFX are relatively cheap, compared to high-end FF lenses suitable for 50+MP "high resolution photography."  The overall size is similar too: same size backpack, same tripod.

[Einst_Stein]

Perhaps the larger format is better for landscape, portraits, or close-up, while the smaller format is better for super tele. 

For bird in flight, as example, Something like Nikon D850 + 200-500mm, or more advanced super tele prime, works much better than any medium format I have tried. Sometimes ASP-C is even better. The difference is day and night. Is this due to the inherent nature of much heavier super tele lens? However, no further downsized format has reached the same quality of proper FF or ASP-C yet. I think it should be marketing decision, not technology limitation.

Back to S4, it is clear Leica has much narrowed specific target users, while Fujifilm GFX is aimed to  broader common users, or even casual hobbyists. Will eventually GFX take away the last piece of cake off Leica? 

 

 

[Pieter12]

In my experience, both with film and digital, the larger format and higher resolution cameras perform much better when used with a tripod. Smaller format, lighter cameras are easier to handle and more forgiving.

[Einst_Stein]

I guess VR is diminishing this issue. Also, with the same MP same angle coverage, the heavier camera/lens combo could be more shaking resistance. I don’t buy that smaller format always less tripod dependent. The worst is iPhone. 

[Pieter12]

47 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said:

I guess VR is diminishing this issue. Also, with the same MP same angle coverage, the heavier camera/lens combo could be more shaking resistance. I don’t buy that smaller format always less tripod dependent. The worst is iPhone. 

The iPhone is terrible because you have to hold it at reading distance to compose and take the shot, not a very stable position. I hate taking photos with it.

[rickgrainger]

Lots of good speculation and wishful thinking on this topic. It has been a joy to follow this. I thought I’d add my “pie in the sky” ideas for y’all to ignore or laugh at. When the S2 was announced in 2008, it was meant to compete with the offerings from Phase One and Hasselblad. Fuji’s GFX, nor Hasselblad’s X system were not available at that time. If my memory hasn’t betrayed me, the Phase One and Hasselblad H systems were running about 40mp and were the “cropped” medium format at that time. The Leica S2 was a medium format that you could take out into the field due to its rugged build and weather sealing. Now, let’s imagine a mirrorless Leica S4 to challenge this niche market.

Mirrorless design with weather sealing and the legendary Leica ruggedness.

Since a new lens mount will be needed for the mirrorless design anyway, how about a new sensor? Maybe a 40mm x 60mm sensor? (Still keeps the 3:2 aspect ratio that is Leica‘s heritage) Maybe call it Leica SuperPro Format to differentiate it from the 30mm x 45mm Leica Pro Format.

A variety of Leica adapters that will automatically crop the sensor based on the lenses. A S-mount adapter that automatically crops the sensor to the Leica Pro Format, an L-mount adapter that crops to 24mm x 36mm, even a TL adapter for 18mm x 24mm. You get the idea.

Keep the combination Focal Plane and Central Shutter options just like on the previous S-series. If there’s a way to increase max central shutter speed to 1/2000 or even 1/4000, then that would be fantastic.

Lenses could be rolled out slowly, just like it was with the S-series. Starting out with a “normal” lens (80mm?), a wide angle (40mm?), and a portrait telephoto (180mm?).

Pricing would be to complete directly with the latest offerings from Phase One and Hasselblad H-series. $40k-$50k USD ?

I would probably pass out if Leica offered this. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by rickgrainger

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[Stuart Richardson]

I was with you until the price. Though I imagine the killer there would be the sensor size...that would likely drive the price way up. Personally I would prefer a 4 to 5 ratio, but given Leica has never left 3:2 in their pro cameras, I doubt that will happen. As I have already written in the thread, I do think there is an opportunity to make this a mirrorless platform that supports all of Leica's lenses...that also seems to be the best chance it has of surviving in the market. I don't have any insider information, but I think Phase and Hasselblad are not really doing super well after the GFX100 came out either (I know more than one professional who was shooting Phase One who "downgraded" to the Fuji...primarily because it is more rugged, weather sealed and literally everything is cheaper, lighter and easier to obtain/repair). I feel like Leica would just repeat the failings of the R and S systems if the new S4 came out at such a high price. I think hands down the biggest reason the S system has so few users is that it is so so much more expensive than its closest competitors (Fuji and Hasselblad...let alone the SL2, Sonys, Nikons etc). Doubling down on this seems like a bad idea. I think they would really knock it out of the park if they could do it for 10k...a noticeable premium over the SL line, but still priced such that it is not wildly more expensive than its peers. Hopefully this is achievable if it shares a lot of parts with the SL line (which in my opinion at least, are just as well built). Additionally, there should be room for some cost savings as they will be able to get rid of the costly and complicated mirror and viewfinder system.

[rickgrainger]

I agree with you, @Stuart Richardson on the price, but I was just trying to maintain some sense of reality. 😅
I like FujiFilm and was greatly looking forward to the GFX system when it was announced way back when. Unfortunately, with no leaf shutter option, it dropped off the radar quickly. That just leaves Leica S, Hasselblad X and H, and Phase One; or just forget about the leaf shutters entirely. I'm in no hurry and will see what Leica has up their sleeve for the S4. I'm sure it will surprise us all. An S4 for $10K USD would be beyond my wildest dreams.