Cayenne Posted January 12, 2021 Share #1  Posted January 12, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi all, Granted this one is WAY off track...but I had been reading on the thread about the rumored "inexpensive" new M camera Leica might be coming out with in 2021. And I honestly can't tell you the mental gymnastics that led from there to what I"m pondering now...but. I was thinking how VERY cool, and niche and different it would be, if Leica came out with a 35mm film camera that shot either exclusively in a panoramic fashion or was adjustable between regular size and panoramic framing, in the same vein as the old Hasselblad Xpan cameras..... I have to say, if another camera like this came out, I'd be falling all over myself to get one. But that just may be Me. My film cameras are currently all Medium Format as that I like the larger images and unique perspectives they give (from 6x6 to 6x17)..... My first Leica is the M10M....unique for being all monochrome....a different way to view the world. I"m very hung up on panoramic type shots, and with Leica being willing to try some pretty niche stuff (a monochrome digital camera)....I was thinking...why not a wide screen film camera view of the world?  Would any of ya'll be interested in such a beast? Would any of the M lenses out there cover a film image circle needed for a 24x65mm image, or would it require a new line of lenses? What would the challenges be of Leica producing a camera body like this?  OH well, again, there were some interesting mental gymnastics to go from original thoughts to this one, but thought it might make for some interesting conversation.  Have a great day!! cayenne Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 12, 2021 Posted January 12, 2021 Hi Cayenne, Take a look here Would Leica ever make a Panoramic 35mm Film Camera?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
a.noctilux Posted January 12, 2021 Share #2  Posted January 12, 2021 I don' think it's viable, but Leica may surprise us 🤥. As decade(s) Xpan I and II user, I did want to use my lovely Leica M lenses, but it was not possible, I do use some SLR lenses though. Leica M lenses don't cover 24x65, but some PC for R can almost cover that format.  So this "to come pano camera" will need another set of pano lenses. Of course, I'll buy the set 😉. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
agiknee Posted January 13, 2021 Share #3  Posted January 13, 2021 No, as no m lenses are adaptable to fit the image circle for both film and digital. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham (G4FUJ) Posted January 13, 2021 Share #4  Posted January 13, 2021 I sold an X-Pan and two lenses to buy an M8. I do miss it - smaller and a little lighter than my 6x17 (which I don't use enough). Would I be interested in a Leica version, yes. But I'm not sure the bank balance would cope! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cayenne Posted January 13, 2021 Author Share #5  Posted January 13, 2021 6 hours ago, Graham (G4FUJ) said: I sold an X-Pan and two lenses to buy an M8. I do miss it - smaller and a little lighter than my 6x17 (which I don't use enough). Would I be interested in a Leica version, yes. But I'm not sure the bank balance would cope! Yeah, it would likely come out at the cost of an arm and a leg...but man, I"d love something like that. I think it would sell like hotcakes myself....at least to those well heeled enough. It does sound like that while M lenses wouldn't cover the image circle...that other lenses in the Leica line up could...so, maybe there wouldn't need to be a completely new set of lenses to be developed, etc.?  At least not starting from scratch.....? As I'd mentioned for film I really enjoy medium format, as that it offers interesting and unique perspectives/formats.....I'd start shooting 35mm too if it were in a pano aspect ratio. I did see an article that Leica had actually once done a digital pano camera custom for a photographer, but that was one off..... Leica Crafted a One-of-a-Kind Panoramic S2 for Josef Koudelka So, at least they have thought about a pano camera in some form or fashion.  OH well, always fun to daydream and wish. cayenne 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted January 15, 2021 Share #6  Posted January 15, 2021 (edited) I have a love/hate/envy relationship to the panoramic format. i've probably mentioned this on the forum before, but I once attended an auction* in order to bid on a brand-new old-stock XPan and 45mm lens - all still boxed with the cellophane and never opened. But I had little hope of being able to afford the kit, so I impulse-bid and won another 501cm Hasselblad that was earlier in the auction.. Imagine my surprise (and consternation) when the bidding on the Xpan kit stopped at around 1500 euros. Nowadays a scrappy old Xpan costs about 4 or 5 times that amount, so when I think of those unopened boxes I just cannot bring myself to pay for the scratched and damaged cameras that are knocking around these days. But then whenever I look at panoramic shots from the camera on Flickr or other photo sites, I'm overwhelmed by how boring they are, and how everyone resorts to the same formulaic look. So maybe I simply dodged a bullet... Having said all that, and to get back to the topic, I doubt Leica would ever venture into this territory... but I have no idea why no other manufacturer has ever tried? *edit: I should add this was only around 7 or 8 years ago, when I was just getting into film. Edited January 15, 2021 by plasticman 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrogallol Posted January 15, 2021 Share #7  Posted January 15, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) Leitz/Barnack experimented with a panoramic camera around 1925 (Van Hasbroeck’s Leica history etc guide). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/316940-would-leica-ever-make-a-panoramic-35mm-film-camera/?do=findComment&comment=4118838'>More sharing options...
pgk Posted January 15, 2021 Share #8  Posted January 15, 2021 On 1/12/2021 at 9:51 PM, Cayenne said: What would the challenges be of Leica producing a camera body like this? Making a profit from it. If the X-pan was still profitable to make, it (or an updated version of it - it required updated electronics to meet current legislation I seem to remember reading - too much lead or something) would still be in production. Enough said? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted January 15, 2021 Share #9 Â Posted January 15, 2021 On 1/13/2021 at 9:16 AM, Cayenne said: I did see an article that Leica had actually once done a digital pano camera custom for a photographer, but that was one off..... Leica Crafted a One-of-a-Kind Panoramic S2 for Josef Koudelka So, at least they have thought about a pano camera in some form or fashion. Just for the record, Koudelka's panoramic S2 was a basic S2 with a cropped film gate, and a cropping mask in the viewfinder. Anyone with any S camera can get identical results simply by cropping a narrow horizontal band (i.e. 45mm x 15mm) out of any S image. It did not add any detail or resolution or pixels - it threw away pixels to get the panoramic shape. It did have a one-off monochrom-ized sensor (made without a Bayer color filter layer), which probably microscopically improved resolution of certain textures compared to a desaturated RGB S image. If one prints big enough. However, speaking of the S, it should be noted that, since 2013, Leica now owns Sinar, the Swiss view-camera company. Which even makes a "view-camera tilt-shift" front-end unit for the S. https://sinar.swiss/assets/Uploads/Manual-Sinar-p3-MF-L-EN.pdf Assuming there is any economic case to be made for the idea (Leica not being a charity, and this being a niche within a niche within a niche), a combined project with Sinar for a 35mm panoramic film camera would likely be the most sensible route. Sinar provides the basic "box" - and a Sinaron lens/shutter with appropriate format coverage (no Leica M lens will cover an image ~72mm wide). Leica (and/or Leica Portugal, or Uwe Weller Feinwerktechik, Leica's other tame machine shop) might well provide the film rails, film wind/rewind, cassette handling, and optical viewfinders. (Of course, Lomo already provides the same - in plastic, for an exorbitant $US 75.00: https://shop.lomography.com/en/cameras/panoramic-cameras/sprocket-rocket ) I suspect the result could be marketed both through Leica and Sinar's organizations - not sure whether it would get a Leica red dot, or a Sinar red dot, though. Â Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ricoh Posted January 15, 2021 Share #10  Posted January 15, 2021 The Lomography sprocket rocket does the job in terms of producing a panoramic negative, but the simple meniscus plastic lens produces the characteristic ‘toy’ image.  Yes I have one and purchased for the characteristics, although it hasn’t seen film yet due to the pandemic. Maybe some bright spark will work out how to mount a sensible glass lens with copal shutter making it a very usable camera. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 16, 2021 Share #11 Â Posted January 16, 2021 On 1/15/2021 at 3:06 PM, plasticman said: ...Imagine my surprise (and consternation) when the bidding on the Xpan kit stopped at around 1500 euros......Nowadays a scrappy old Xpan costs about 4 or 5 times that amount, so when I think of those unopened boxes I just cannot bring myself to pay for the scratched and damaged cameras that are knocking around these days... I don't suppose it will still be of interest to you but currently listed on the Peter Loy site there is an X-Pan with 45mm f4 for 2,900 Euros and a 90mm f4 to go with it for 550 Euros. Peter's grading is always very conservative; the items are, IMX, in better condition than advertised. Scroll down around 1/4 the way to find the Hasselblad kit; http://www.peterloy.com/stock-list.php Philip (no affiliation with Mr. Loy apart from being a very happy customer). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cayenne Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share #12  Posted January 19, 2021 On 1/15/2021 at 1:09 PM, pgk said: Making a profit from it. If the X-pan was still profitable to make, it (or an updated version of it - it required updated electronics to meet current legislation I seem to remember reading - too much lead or something) would still be in production. Enough said? Well, I"d prefer to to with one that was fully mechanical, or if electronic I guess maybe only for a light meter for the masses.....  I just have to think there would be. a market for such a beast....especially seeing how much old and potentially easily bricked Xpans go for these days.  C Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham (G4FUJ) Posted January 20, 2021 Share #13  Posted January 20, 2021 18 hours ago, Cayenne said: Well, I"d prefer to to with one that was fully mechanical, or if electronic I guess maybe only for a light meter for the masses..... I just have to think there would be. a market for such a beast....especially seeing how much old and potentially easily bricked Xpans go for these days. C Plenty of mechanical 6x17 out there. I'll be keeping mine! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2021 Share #14  Posted January 21, 2021 I had an XPan ii for a few years that I bought as a lighter-weight alternative to my Fuji GX617 for travel and wedding photography. Image quality does not come anywhere close to 6x17 or a similar crop from 6x9  Nicely built, but a vastly overrated and overpriced (then and now) camera for what it is.  None of the cameras mentioned on this thread are 'panoramic', they are more honestly described as wide format cameras. 1 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted January 21, 2021 Share #15  Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Ouroboros said: None of the cameras mentioned on this thread are 'panoramic', they are more honestly described as wide format cameras. True. But trying to police the shifting sands of language is a thankless task - and usually results in a headache. I'm afraid that horse left the barn decades ago. Leica 35mm-film panorama (original usage). 2003, M6, 35mm Summicron, Ilford Pan F, six stitched scans (using antique PS3 algorithms). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited January 21, 2021 by adan Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/316940-would-leica-ever-make-a-panoramic-35mm-film-camera/?do=findComment&comment=4122450'>More sharing options...
adan Posted January 21, 2021 Share #16  Posted January 21, 2021 The "Leica" of actual 35mm-film panoramic cameras - Panon Widelux. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/316940-would-leica-ever-make-a-panoramic-35mm-film-camera/?do=findComment&comment=4122458'>More sharing options...
Tom R Posted January 21, 2021 Share #17  Posted January 21, 2021 Seems to me that the likelihood of such a thing is pretty low: The "film" market is, arguably, a niche. The demand for panoramic cameras is likely a smaller niche (given the ease of creating panoramic images in Post Processing). Finally, the rangefinder market is likely a niche--especially given the plethora of more economical alternatives. The product of these gives me a pretty narrow slice across the spectrum of <you pick the category here>. But, I'm not a marketing person by any stretch ... just thinking of the question in the abstract. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted January 21, 2021 Share #18 Â Posted January 21, 2021 I picked one of these up in a sale a few years ago, only used it once so far but it's a bit of fun. https://shop.lomography.com/en/spinner-360-new-package?country=gb I also have a couple of 6x9 folders that I keep meaning to try some 'widescreen' photography with, cropping down. Of course blending a number of digital images is the new 'XPan' isn't it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 21, 2021 Share #19  Posted January 21, 2021 3 hours ago, adan said: True. But trying to police the shifting sands of language is a thankless task - and usually results in a headache. I'm afraid that horse left the barn decades ago. Leica 35mm-film panorama (original usage). 2003, M6, 35mm Summicron, Ilford Pan F, six stitched scans (using antique PS3 algorithms). 3 hours ago, adan said: Leica 35mm-film panorama (original usage). 2003, M6, 35mm Summicron, Ilford Pan F, six stitched scans (using antique PS3 algorithms). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! You'd have made a better job of that with a wide format camera  Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Morgan Posted January 21, 2021 Share #20  Posted January 21, 2021 My attempts at stitching images together are so comically bad I've largely given up. Were it not for the failure of my main flat roof I might have bought a 617 by now, but at some later date. But Leica won't be making one. Their niche lies elsewhere.  Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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