35 APO Summicron-L vs 35 Summicron-M ASPH

[Rick in CO]

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Has anyone compared the 35 APO Summicron-L lens vs the 35 Summicron-M ASPH on their SL 601?  

I am wondering how the two might compare especially on the 24 Mp original (not back-lit) sensor.  

Think Leica might release an APO version for the M camera?

[Ashkanani1985]

Hi 

I have both, I’ve used the Asph version for almost 2 years on my m10 and love it but than got the SL2-S and the 35mm APO and I can tell you straight away the APO is in different league you dont even need to do head to head compere to tell that 35mm APO is something else and maybe the best Lens I’ve ever owned! But the ASPH is small and lighter and perfectly fit for M Camera, I guess I will keep both as there is different characters to each one. 

[Ashkanani1985]

10 minutes ago, Steven said:

I've tried both. I confirm, they are not comparable. The 35 SL is the best lens I have ever tried too. You need to see it to understand. Too bad the AF sucks. 

Steven this is not the first time I hear that AF sucks in Leica SL, but now its been 3 weeks using the SL2-S and I don’t see the AF bad at all?! Maybe in Video yes and hopping the coming firmware will fix it... but photo side I am really enjoying the AF of this camera and not only me as my friend was trying it last week and he share same experiences specially that he is Canon R5 user! One thing we both noticed when comparing SL2-S to R5 that R5 yes is faster, but SL2-S is more precise and hit rate was higher and thats not in sport photography, it was portrait and street, the Contrast detect is always more precise than the phase detect! 

[Jeff S]

The size of the SL 35 allowed Karbe to optimize technical performance measures, and as a result he calls it his best lens.  As he explained, it could have been the smallest of the SL Summicrons had it not been for the decision to standardize barrel dimensions.  Size (and price) freedom can be a designer’s best friend.  Plus native lenses can be optimized in ways (hardware and/or software based) that don’t always apply to adapted lenses, and M lenses in particular can have unique RF requirements/constraints.

But technical measures don’t necessarily correlate with picture quality.  Right tool for the job, and dependent on user goals and style.

Jeff

Edited January 12, 2021 by Jeff S

[hoppyman]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

I've tried both. I confirm, they are not comparable. The 35 SL is the best lens I have ever tried too. You need to see it to understand. Too bad the AF sucks. 

Hi Steven, would you mind detailing specifically how you are using the 35SL to see deficient focus performance?

Wide open at close distances, which I think should be the most critical, I use spot AF for that and mine has been instant and flawless when I position that spot accurately. 
Perhaps we use the lens in different ways?

For the Original Poster:

 When I was using the M system, I rarely used the Summicron M 35 ASPH where critical focus was needed  and I couldn’t comment more than I never noticed any issue.

 I had the Summilux M 35 ASPH later ( the current one) too. Mine was early production if that matters. In any event the close focus was actually off quite a bit as delivered. That was fixed by our national repairer here perfectly.

The systems are very different of course. Anecdotally, that SL Summicron is the best lens I have ever owned.

Edited January 12, 2021 by hoppyman

[Ashkanani1985]

14 minutes ago, hoppyman said:

Hi Steven, would you mind detailing specifically how you are using the 35SL to see deficient focus performance?

Wide open at close distances, which I think should be the most critical, I use spot AF for that and mine has been instant and flawless when I position that spot accurately. 
Perhaps we use the lens in different ways?

For the Original Poster:

 When I was using the M system, I rarely used the Summicron M 35 ASPH where critical focus was needed  and I couldn’t comment more than I never noticed any issue.

 I had the Summilux M 35 ASPH later ( the current one) too. Mine was early production if that matters. In any event the close focus was actually off quite a bit as delivered. That was fixed by our national repairer here perfectly.

The systems are very different of course. Anecdotally, that SL Summicron is the best lens I have ever owned.

I do agree mine as well on SL2-S is really good specially in AF always spot on even with Face detect always on the correct eye and very precise, and fast enough for almost any photography kind even at F2 this lens never let me down.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Ashkanani1985

[Ashkanani1985]

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33 minutes ago, Steven said:

It won't I don't expect the firmware to surpass the S5, and if it equals the S5, which I also doubt, it will not be any good. 

 

Sure, on a "nature morte", you're better off with contrast than phase, but in real life and most shooting scenarios, a hybrid of the two is preferable. 

 

Have you tried one of the latest sony cameras or an R5?!!! 

First of all S5 is not that bad in video sure its not for shooting Sport video but for everything else is fine and you can see all the hype about it in youtube, actually is one of the best selling Panasonic camera now! 
regarding trying R5 and Sony, if you see my comment yes we compare it with R5, the R5 is faster but the SL2-S is more precise and higher hit rate, thats for normally portrait and street shooting no sport photography, by the way not just me who say this but if you do some searching on the net you will see that the benefits of contrast detect is that this kind of focus always more precise than phase detect! 
 

Steven to me AF is just AF and I will never prefer a camera to another based on AF! The better camera is the one with a better picture as simple as this!  and Leica is in different league in this regard, Canon maybe come next but Sony no matter what they do even if there camera can shoot by itself I hate the picture out of it, horrible colour science and cheap glass!

 
 

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Ashkanani1985

[Ashkanani1985]

20 minutes ago, Steven said:

From "reviewers" who received fro free from Pana and used it for 3 days. I tried it and I can assure you the video AF is absolute trash. The improvement is noticeable with photos, as it will be with the SL2S upgrade. 

 

Because of a lot of reason, one of them being the spec list/price ratio, but the last reason is AF. Trust me. 

 

About the rest, I really don't think it's necessary to enter a debate on wether Leica's CDAF is better than Canon DPAF2 or not. It's like saying the sky is blue, or water boils at 100 and freezes at 0. DPAF2 is light years ahead of Leica. I understand if you try to convince yourself that your new purchase is better. I did that you. But its not. I'm sorry. 

The SL2-S AF is perfectly usable with stills, if your expectations aren't too high, because compared to the market, it is subpar. Everyone admits it. 

For video, it's trash. MF is way faster. 

First of all you know and I know if you can afford Leica you can afford any Camera! So you don’t need to justify anything 😂
secondly I received my SL2-S as camera to review and try from Leica on 10th of December and made Hand on video and review will follow very soon maybe next week...from official Leica Middle east, so I am not justifying my purchase but I did buy the camera within 10 days after trying it and by the way I get to try and use all kinds of camera first when they are released in Middle east and really loved SL2-S better than any Canon or Sony.... 

you can follow me and see my work in Instagrams @camerapedia

This is my Hand on SL2-S 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Ashkanani1985

[Photoworks]

15 minutes ago, Ashkanani1985 said:

Steven to me AF is just AF and I will never prefer a camera to another based on AF! The better camera is the one with a better picture as simple as this!  and Leica is in different league in this regard, Canon maybe come next but Sony no matter what they do even if there camera can shoot by itself I hate the picture out of it, horrible colour science and cheap glass!

 
 

 

funny how partisan you are LOL

I have Leica SL2 Sony a7R4  and various canon cameras. they each have there strength and weakness , but if I show you 2 images of the same location and processed in capture one, I bet you can see much difference between sony and Leica. I suppose it is a 50/50 chance .

[Ashkanani1985]

2 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

funny how partisan you are LOL

I have Leica SL2 Sony a7R4  and various canon cameras. they each have there strength and weakness , but if I show you 2 images of the same location and processed in capture one, I bet you can see much difference between sony and Leica. I suppose it is a 50/50 chance .

 

1 minute ago, Steven said:

As far as I am concerned, I am the king of blind tests. If you show me a photo with a subject, not a landscape or a brick wall, I'll tell which one is Leica 95% of the time. 

I agree with Steven I can do the same provided that you use Leica glass on Leica and believe me I see at least 3 kind of camera every month for review and tried each and every new camera nothing come close to Leica! 

[Chuck Albertson]

I use both lenses on the SL 601. The 35SL is at least 1 louder. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuzpsO4ErOQ

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Chuck Albertson

[Stuart Richardson]

Steven, I think you might get a better response if rather than saying "the AF sucks", you might say that you think the AF is not comparable to other mirrorless systems with phase detect. This question was about two lenses, one of which is completely manual, and the other which is not available on a phase detect camera system. And it was about a specific camera which only has contrast detect to begin with, so to say that the 35mm has AF that sucks is somewhat misleading, as it focuses just as well as any other lens in the L mount system. It is unarguable that other camera systems have quicker AF and better tracking, but I would not characterize the focus on the SL2 as "sucking". At least to my ears, that suggests that it largely fails to achieve focus or is unreliable. That has not been my experience at all. On the contrary, I agree with Ashkanani that it is more accurate than the last Sony I had (an A7Rii, which I realize is older). Of course, if you are heavily reliant on autofocus to keep up with quickly moving subjects or erratic subjects, or if you rely on autofocus for video, then it makes sense to find a camera system with phase detection, as it will not need to rack the lens back and forth to focus. I have found that for my work, the AF works perfectly. I would much rather accuracy than speed in all cases. If Leica could add phase detect and maintain the accuracy, I am sure we would all be grateful, but for the moment, the system is what it is, and Leica's emphasis with AF has always been to make sure that it is as accurate as they can make it, as they want to show off the sharpness of their lenses. You probably know, but they actually invented autofocus and then never used it, selling the patents to Minolta.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[XRayGuy]

I have both 35s and agree with what has been said here - the Apo-Summicron SL is as close to a technically perfect lens as I have ever seen, but of course the M is far smaller and lighter.

I have to say I have never had any issues with AF using the 35mm SL.  AF is incredibly fast with that lens and accurate.  Face/eye detect for stills works on par with my A7rIV.  I don't shoot serious video so it is possible that is where the AF system falls down but I maintain that for a stills shooter the SL2 AF system meets all of my needs.

[Daniel C.1975]

Hi, 

 

in my opinion there is no competition between the summicron-m and the SL. Honestly, I was never a fan of the summicron-m, despite really wanting to like it. 

 

Coming from the Zeiss Distagon 35 I wanted something smaller and moved towards the latest summicron-m. In all honesty, the experience was sobering. The summicron was, especially in the range up to 3m at f2, not even close to the quality of the Zeiss - in practical all disciplines. Sharpness, contrast, bokeh ... . it only was smaller. 

Therefore I brought the summicron-m back, bit the bullet and exchanged it, in liason with lots of cash, into the summilux-FLE. While in certain terms, technically not in all disciplines as good as the Zeiss, I still liked its rendering better compared to the Zeiss and it was tack-sharp from F1.4 and much smaller. So it was my most beloved lens for a long time. 

With my move to the SL2-S my first lens was the summicron-sl 35, which is in most, but not all apects, better than the summilux-m FLE, I again have a 35mm lens wich I will for sure enjoy a lot and will be my main lens. 

Summary: The Summicron-m 35 is for sure a great lens, I however, cannot understand the hype arround it. There are much better lenses out and the summicron-sl is optically far, far better. But also far more expensive and much, much larger  ... and does have AF, which in my opionion does not suck at all 😉

 

Cheers

Daniel

[Daniel C.1975]

Absolutely right, without a RF but an EVF, there are not many reasons for the FLE, despite the cooler look with this sooo nice lenshood

[Slender]

It is puzzling to hear so many complaints about AF noise (and operation) with the 35SL, are there some bad ones out there or they all do the same circus in AF(s) ?...

I cannot relate to this at all with the SL24-90 in all AF mode, it gets the shot for me (in stills), but then again this bad-boy lens only has one tiny glass element to move around for focussing...

On a side note the linear function update works good for me in video. I had the chance (and pleasure) to experiment more with SL2 and video (with atomos). One thing I need to try is some hollywood blackmagic or black promist filter.... I am sure this is even more pleasant with SL2s and I wish you Steve that the potential new Zoom (or something else in L-mount alliance) can be your right fit for video (PL lenses anyone? :))

@Steven If you have a silver pre-FLE, by all mean keep it (or sell it only to me:)... it draws so beautifuly... the construction is "they don't make them like that anymore".  It is a much more pleasant look than FLE in my opinion. You will regret this very bitterly if you were to part from it.

Leica most beautiful lenses in term of construction, EVER: my top 3 would include this 35, the Lux 50 asph and the 90-M f2.8 in their ALL brass finish.... there is quite nothing like it, they are the summun of money/weight is no object from Leica... all fit with beautiful e46 filters you can also have in silver brass... bokeh, aperture blade number.... Yes, they don't make them like this anymore, and that is a sad thing (save for some vintage résurrection series here and there...)

[Slender]

Good to hear all this feedback... I wonder if the other SL cron behave the same...

My top was specially for construction quality. Sadly any new silver lens from Leica is now made of aluminium (this started with the 28 cron silver...) ---except the vintage revivals I believe ---.

Leica has a great love history with 28 (and 21) and it shows very well I adore the cron-M... never tried the 1.4 but yeah looks terrific.

[Stuart Richardson]

I was going to come in here to say that if you want a manual focus 35mm 1.4 lens with beautiful rendering for the SL, another good option would be the 35mm Summilux R, but then I did a quick ebay check and saw that they are selling for 6000 dollars or more...I used to have one and when I left the R system I think it was worth about 2000....

[Slender]

Yes I guess for this money/performance you can also look at Zeiss ZM or Voigtlander f1.2.... I did use this R lens it was great, but tbh a bit out of date compared to these and the price skyrocketed because some companies make big bucks rehousing/upselling those to DOPs....

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Hallo,

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[Stuart Richardson]

Yeah, I figured that was the issue. It is not comparable in sharpness and lack of fringing etc to the FLE, so I figured it had to be for film. It does have a nice big smooth focusing ring, however so it would be very easy to put some teeth on it, or convert it and enjoy the rendering.