Really, new cheap(er) film M in 2021 ?

[IkarusJohn]

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4 minutes ago, adan said:

Well, it was for 25 years - right up until Hermès got into the act. A scarf and purse company making cameras, for bog's sake.

One of the really good things about Dr. Kaufmann's take-over was that he tossed "Hermès chic" out the back door, and took Leica back to engineering. At least for a while.

I thought it blistered and got ugly quite quickly?  Never had one, so I’m only repeating what I have read here.  

Maybe you’re right - an M6 … I wonder how they would bring it up to date?  M3 style advance lever and rewind knob (just to piss you off, Andy) 😀

[adan]

48 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I thought it blistered and got ugly quite quickly?  Never had one, so I’m only repeating what I have read here.  

I've seen maybe two dozen "zinc" M's over the years - only saw corrosion bubbles on one (4%). Certainly much rarer than, say, sensor corrosion. 😳

The black chrome on the zinc cameras wears along exposed edges at a rate of about 20% of that on my M10 (i.e. my 5-year-old BC M10 already looks like a 25-year-old M4-2/M4-P/M6.)

And I think you asked what would differentiate the new camera from the MP?

How about "Hey, if you don't want bubbles, pay the extra $1500!"

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

1 thing about increasing production of MP & MA cameras as they are with some, or no, modifications, is: Should Leica increase facilities & increase the number of highly trained people to produce something: If it is unclear if the demand is a "bubble", or if the demand will continue?

Or, is it better to increase facilities & to increase the number of highly trained people at a rate reflective of long term demand: After the actual long term demand can be determined?

Hiring new highly trained people & increasing facilities in an industry that is Capital Intensive & demands a Long Term Investment is a big decision for any Company.

A separate thought: Many years ago I read an interview with the person who was then the head of Rolls Royce. He was explaining what the Company was & why it was so successful & why there was such a demand for their cars. As he was going down the list of all of the things they did, & how everything that they did was of such high quality (Which it was. ). He got to a certain point & then said "And for every 10 orders we get, we build 9 cars.". And then he continued on.

Building 9 of something for every 10 orders sometimes makes sense in a field that requires long term investment in both highly skilled people & specialized high quality equipment. Especially if what is being built is in a field where there might be fluctuation in demand. Because in slow times you can make up that 1 out of 10 & if demand picks up production time might take a little longer.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[logan2z]

2 hours ago, adan said:

1) In 1967 Leica made the second greatest design innovation in the whole M series (outside of creating it in the first place). Leica got rid of the stupid, slow 1920s-era rewind knob, and replaced it with a crank - like every other market-leading 35mm camera after 1960.

For me, that is a large difference - so large that it would be the sole determinant of which film Leica M I might buy (never, under any circumstances, an M3, M2, MP or M-A - but just possibly, an M6.2). And the increase in used M6/M7 prices, compared to the increase for an M3 or M2, tends to indicate that a lot of would-be Leica owners agree.

Dump the knob!

I don't see a smiley so I'm going to have to assume you're serious.  In that case, seriously?!   I've got an M4 and an M-A and don't see any great difference between the crank and the knob in terms of rewind speed/convenience.  Admittedly, I'm not a PJ so if it takes me a few extra seconds to use the knob then I'm not going to miss a chance at a Pulitzer Prize winning shot.  I can't imagine shunning an M3, M2, MP, M-A for that reason alone.

And if I had to guess why we're seeing M6 prices spike much more than M3/M2 prices, I'd say it's due to the preference for metered cameras for those new to film.  I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of the quick load system in the M3/M2 and the additional framelines in the M6 were factors as well. 

The rewind crank?  Who cares  

Edited October 27, 2021 by logan2z

[adan]

Well, it would be fun to see the statistics from back when Leica was seriously doing "à la carte" versions of the film cameras - then just the M7 and the MP.

Buyers could choose which rewind device they wanted on their custom-built cameras (along with flexible plastic/metal advance lever vs. all-metal MP-style lever, and so on).

Be interesting to see how many chose an MP fitted with the M7 crank. Versus how many chose an M7 with the MP knob substituted.

Plus, of course, when the MP came out, Leica started production of the attachable accessory rewind crank 14438 - for photographers who discovered their mistake too late.

Rather an expensive step to take, unless Leica felt there was a distinct market for them.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/278005-REG/Leica_14438_MP_Rapid_Film_Rewind.html

And there were dozens of similar 3rd-party accessory cranks being made - and sold - in the M3/M2 era. Working photogs thought the knobs were dopey.

https://www.cameraquest.com/LRWlev.htm

But it was a kludge to correct a kludge. So, as I said, Leica disposed of the knob altogether for 35 years - until the purse-and-scarf folks (always reliable camera fashion-accessory-creators) took over.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB974726818477701712

You're right that there are a variety of factors creating the attractiveness of the M6 design - which was, after all, the Leica M with the longest production life. Although the MP will catch it in years (if not numbers) in 2023.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

Personally, I think that Leica would be better off as a Company, for themselves, if they would offer the option of both types of rewinds. Just as I think that they would be better off for themselves if they offered both M4 & M2 style film advance levers, rewind levers & frame finder levers.

Because: Some people like 1 & other people prefer the other. Because personal choice is not always a value judgement.

They could, as standard, make whatever combination of "this & that" that they want. And, keeping in mind: Other than the film rewind mechanism, none of the others is a big deal to do or to produce: They could offer all of these other components as options.

As to the 2 different rewinds: The knob system is simpler to make & is theoretically more reliable . The canted rewind knob must use a contrate wheel. A contrate wheel mechanism is more expensive to make & is theoretically less reliable. It also has a higher frictional component. 

Having written this: Leitz/Leica know how to build high quality, robust components with long service lives. I am sure that they make a high quality, robust & reliable canted folding film rewind mechanism.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited October 27, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[IkarusJohn]

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That’s a great idea, Michael.  They could also offer other options - leather covering, viewfinder options, body finish … and they could give it a cool name like, a la carte?

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

Just a note: The M3, at 227,959 according to the WIKI at the top of this page, is the "M" model with the greatest number produced. Really nice 0.91 X range/viewfinder which is at its best with a 90mm lens. The camera seems to be designed around the idea of using a 90mm lens as the most important lens. Also really good with a 135mm lens without "goggles". Or a 50mm lens. Perfectly OK with a 35mm lens with "goggles" which create a magnification factor  of 0.6 X.

Best Regards,

Michael

[adan]

1 hour ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

The canted rewind knob must use a contrate wheel.

I beleive it is actually a Cardan Joint or Universal Joint.

https://www.vexrobotics.com/276-2723.html

Which does a similar job to a contrate wheel (transfer rotary motion and force through an angle).

But is far more compact for its strength (fits within the diameter of the rotating shafts) and only needs a crosspiece with four arms, rather than many small gear teeth (which may be more appropriate for the fine motion in timepieces).

[wattsy]

4 hours ago, adan said:

Be interesting to see how many chose an MP fitted with the M7 crank. Versus how many chose an M7 with the MP knob substituted.

I'm with you on the superiority of the angled crank but I doubt that many others see it that way, especially those who went to the trouble of ordering an à la carte camera. I think the alternative VF magnifications were the main attraction there, along with the possibility of ordering a black paint M7 or an MP with green ostrich skin leather.

Edited October 27, 2021 by wattsy

[wattsy]

9 hours ago, adan said:

Be interesting to see how many chose an MP fitted with the M7 crank. Versus how many chose an M7 with the MP knob substituted.

Thinking about this again, I seem to recall that the latter option wasn't actually available under the à la carte scheme. You could order an MP with angled "M7" crank but not the other way around.

About ten years or so ago, I seriously considered buying an à la carte Leica. I was very tempted to order a black paint MP with the angled rewind crank, full engraving  and a 0.72x finder with only 35/50/90 frames. I thought it would be a cheaper way of buying something close to a brand new black paint M4 (albeit with metering) but was ultimately put off by the countervailing thought that I would be paying a big premium for what was, to all intents and proposes, 'just' a black paint M6. 😀 Having seen what has happened to prices for used M6 bodies in recent years, the asking price for that à la carte MP, now seems quite reasonable.

[omega1848]

I know, nothing concrete new to report, but I am wondering if something is coming up at Leica within the next couple of weeks...either analog or digita.

Why? Mhmm, maybe I am to "Sherlock Holmes" like and totally wrong, but at least some "influencers"/ Youtubers like bigheadtaco are getting to Germany next week, visiting Leica...so I was wondering if others are invited as well...if yes, well that would lead to some sort of Leica announcement, would't it?

 

[28framelines]

41 minutes ago, omega1848 said:

I know, nothing concrete new to report, but I am wondering if something is coming up at Leica within the next couple of weeks...either analog or digita.

Why? Mhmm, maybe I am to "Sherlock Holmes" like and totally wrong, but at least some "influencers"/ Youtubers like bigheadtaco are getting to Germany next week, visiting Leica...so I was wondering if others are invited as well...if yes, well that would lead to some sort of Leica announcement, would't it?

 

Oh… that’s a very good analysis. I’ve been talking with Take and he wouldn’t tell me what he was up to..

[Andy_Shields]

A lot of talk about the angled rewind being superior and no talk about the fact that it isn't clutched like the classic style knob. Using M's with classic controls there is nothing that frustrates me. However, back when I owned an M6 it was pretty common for my fingers to slip off of that tiny rewind grip and have the tension of the film release. This is impossible with the classic knob as it's clutched to hold the tension. Is it slower? I guess a few seconds slower. Is it super solid, yep. Not to mention the advance lock-ups on angled rewind M's due to the mechanism binding when the screw gets loose. A very common cause for service down-time and expense.

And just so everyone can hate me, the truth is that the M5 rewind solution is by far the most elegant. Its got a little handle, it's clutched AND it's design allows for native double exposures. Something no other M offers. 

Just to chime in on the LeicaRumors rumor, I think it's total BS for click traffic. If it is real, heaven help these folks paying $3k+ for M6's. 

[Michael Geschlecht]

20 minutes ago, Andy_Shields said:

A lot of talk about the angled rewind being superior and no talk about the fact that it isn't clutched like the classic style knob. Using M's with classic controls there is nothing that frustrates me. However, back when I owned an M6 it was pretty common for my fingers to slip off of that tiny rewind grip and have the tension of the film release. This is impossible with the classic knob as it's clutched to hold the tension. Is it slower? I guess a few seconds slower. Is it super solid, yep. Not to mention the advance lock-ups on angled rewind M's due to the mechanism binding when the screw gets loose. A very common cause for service down-time and expense.

And just so everyone can hate me, the truth is that the M5 rewind solution is by far the most elegant. Its got a little handle, it's clutched AND it's design allows for native double exposures. Something no other M offers. 

Just to chime in on the LeicaRumors rumor, I think it's total BS for click traffic. If it is real, heaven help these folks paying $3k+ for M6's. 

Hello Andy,

Welcome to the Forum.

The M5 does a number of things better.

The shutter speed that the shutter speed dial is set to is visible in the range/viewfinder window.

3, independent of each other, flash connections.

Easier to operate shutter speed dial with the ability to set intermediate shutter speeds that is easier to do than it is with some other "M" film cameras. 

You do not have to remove your eye from the range/viewfinder window in order to change the shutter speed. Or to know what speed the shutter is set to.

Removable quick loading spool.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited October 31, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[ianman]

5 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

You do not have to remove your eye from the range/viewfinder window in order to change the shutter speed.

Do you need to do that with other models?

[Matlock]

28 minutes ago, ianman said:

Do you need to do that with other models?

The point is that the shutter speed is visible in the viewfinder. In many ways the M5 was the best M series Leica.

[Michael Geschlecht]

14 hours ago, ianman said:

Do you need to do that with other models?

Hello Ian,

I am sorry that I did not write more clearly.

What I meant to write is: Because the shutter speed that you have set is visible in the range/viewfinder window: You can adjust the shutter speed with the nicely overhanging shutter speed dial & see the speed that the camera is set to without removing your eye from the range/viewfinder window.

Thank you for noticing that.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited October 31, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[ianman]

Once again,”best”, “better” have no meaning in this instance. Many users, in particular film users it would seem, prefer an uncluttered viewfinder. It’s very rare that I need to look at the shutter speed dial and would only do so when I know I’m nearing very slow (to confirm I can still take the photo or need a tripod) or want to set a specific speed.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Aryel]

1 hour ago, ianman said:

Many users, in particular film users it would seem, prefer an uncluttered viewfinder.

I fully agree with this. I like how this break the photography taking into clear steps. When I raise the camera to my eye, I mostly want to focus and compose. I don’t want to see or think about anything else. I can still adjust shutter speed and aperture if needed but rarely do. I am not arguing that this is better, just what works for me.