Really, new cheap(er) film M in 2021 ?

[logan2z]

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3 hours ago, Steven said:

Never mind, I think I got it. 

MA is the new M6?

MP is the new M7? 

 

M-A is the new M3

MP is the new M6

 

 

 

 

 

[CosmoM3]

1 hour ago, logan2z said:

M-A is the new M3

MP is the new M6

 

 

 

 

 

M-A is the new M4

M6 is the new M4-P with a light meter

MP is an M-A with a light meter

[adan]

The "Mx is the new Mz" paradigm is a bit misleading.

The MP and M-A are retro revivals of the "ethos," but not the exact feature sets, of either the original 1950s M3 or M2. With their rewind knobs, a feature abandoned by Leica from 1967 until 1999 (special Millennium M6ttl edition) or 2003 (MP).

The M2 with its 0.72x viewfinder and flat window bezels would be the closest match to either, except it had a manual-reset external frame counter wheel, no 28/75/135 framelines, and except for a few limited-production M2-R or M2-S variants, did not have the modern, fixed, auto-gripping film takeup system.

The MP has a meter, and the required readouts and functioning ISO dial - the M-A deletes the meter and readouts and has a film-type reminder dial, making it the closest match to an M2 (except for the M3-style internal framecounter, and M4-P-style six-framelines set).

Every Leica M except the M7 and the digital Leicas uses a clockwork mechanical shutter than requires no batteries to function.

The M7 continued alongside the MP in the line as "the modern M," with taller body, canted rewind crank, larger shutter dial, battery-dependent electronic shutter, aperture-priority autoexposure, and TTL flash metering.

Once declining sales figures showed that those who wanted "a modern Leica" were mostly simply buying digital Ms, the battery-dependent M7's time ran out.

And is unlikely to return, since it falls into a never-neverland between the committed purist film users (who sneer at batteries), and the "most modern M" photographers, who figure if one is just pushing electrons, one might as well get the features of digital.

The M7's required dedicated electronic/auto horizontal film shutter is simply no longer viable economically. Cheaper and much easier for Leica to simply build more of their own clockwork shutters - or "buy in" an off-the-shelf vertical-blade electrical shutter (unlike the M7's).

Edited January 3, 2021 by adan

[Mr.Prime]

Yes, rangefinders are nice, but if you want retro film cameras with an auto exposure option and electronic shutter you will want to remember that this technology was refined and perfected by the Japanese to the ultimate and produced by the millions. Yes, Leica are great, but they are best used to their strengths, which for film is the all mechanical M; this is something few can do as well, if at all. Hence, I have a Japanese film SLR with aperture priority option for when I fancy a change from my Leica M3 (and soon, M4). It’s lighter than my M3, feels solid in my hands, is no larger, has a far better viewfinder, easier film loading etc. so I’m giving up nothing for access to auto exposure except the joy of using a Leica RF and it’s lenses. 

[250swb]

9 hours ago, logan2z said:

M-A is the new M3

MP is the new M6

 

The battery in an MP is optional, which makes the MP

a more versatile M-A

the new M3

the improved M3

and the original M-A

all depending on whether or not the battery is fitted.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ouroboros]

Back to the original point of the thread.

Since Leica took the decision to discontinue the summarit range, all this speculation about a rumoured 'budget' film M makes no commercial sense to me.  If Leica aren't willing to support a lower priced M film camera with a complimentary range of lower cost lenses, they might as well resurrect te R line of slr bodies too.

If there's any substance to this rumour, I suspect Leica have been convinced by those forum 'experts' who insist that a back-up body is vital to their holidays (Ooops..... of course I mean their 'photoshoots' and 'trips'  )

Leica's resources would be far better served in their having a good think about increasingly high resolution sensors and their compatibility with current mechanical rangefinders and unstabilised M bodies than fecking around with a cheapo film M camera body that no one wants or needs.

[Aryel]

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1 hour ago, Ouroboros said:

Leica's resources would be far better served in their having a good think about increasingly high resolution sensors and their compatibility with current mechanical rangefinders and unstabilised M bodies than fecking around with a cheapo film M camera body that no one wants or needs

Depending on what they come up with, I could be interested. I suspect quite a few people could be too.

Have you checked how much point and shoot are going for? They could put one together, sell it a bit more than the contax models...

If it feels like a cheaper mp/ma, it would probably end up like the summarits. If it is a camera that puts something on the table that the other two don't then why not. 

let's see if the rumour concretize...

[Ouroboros]

20 minutes ago, Aryel said:

If it is a camera that puts something on the table that the other two don't then why not. 

 

OK, so what do you suggest that a cheaper M could offer to make it more attractive than either an MP, M-A or a used Mx?

 

[logan2z]

6 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

OK, so what do you suggest that a cheaper M could offer to make it more attractive than either an MP, M-A or a used Mx?

 

A lower price than the M-A/MP and, in the case of a used Mx, a warranty.

[Ouroboros]

1 minute ago, logan2z said:

A lower price than the M-A/MP and, in the case of a used Mx, a warranty.

Cosina tried that.

How else do you manufacture a camera that is essentially the same but cheaper to produce and sell, other than by using cheaper and less robust materials and construction and cheap outsourced labour? 

I see no rational commercial sense for Leica to risk undermining their reputation and/or M-A and MP sales. 

[frame-it]

12 minutes ago, logan2z said:

A lower price than the M-A/MP and, in the case of a used Mx, a warranty.

could be a deal with the zenit factory

Edited January 3, 2021 by frame-it

[Aryel]

30 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

OK, so what do you suggest that a cheaper M could offer to make it more attractive than either an MP, M-A or a used Mx?

 

I mentioned it earlier: a modern Minolta cle. Smaller than a M. Different than every single M. Smaller/cheaper than the m7. They'd get my money for one of this. 

They could also go point and shoot... At some point some company will (I think). 

If they go the m6 road, then I am not interested either.

[UliWer]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Ouroboros:

How else do you manufacture a camera that is essentially the same but cheaper to produce and sell, other than by using cheaper and less robust materials and construction and cheap outsourced labour? 

That‘s also my point of view - though perhaps there could be a chance saving production costs by using components from the digital models, e.g. the electronics for lightmetering. The M7 was ditched as they couldn‘t get the electronic components on the market any longer, which are more than 20 years old. This may be different - and probably much cheaper - if they used parts which are not specific to M models for film.

 

[Ouroboros]

9 minutes ago, Aryel said:

I mentioned it earlier: a modern Minolta cle. Smaller than a M. Different than every single M. Smaller/cheaper than the m7. They'd get my money for one of this. 

They could also go point and shoot... At some point some company will (I think). 

If they go the m6 road, then I am not interested either.

You seem to be saying that a new film camera that is smaller and cheaper than a new MP or M-A would be enough to make it viable.  The CLE wasn’t exactly a runaway success when film was the only choice, though, so despite the fact that I agree it’s an interesting idea, I’m sceptical of the commercial feasibility. 

 

[Ko.Fe.]

22 minutes ago, frame-it said:

could be a deal with the zenit factory

Dark rumor.

Last time Leica Camera AG went with factory which used to made film Zenit cameras for re-branded M240, the M240 was gone for good shortly after it. 

[a.noctilux]

Mechanical please !

My point of view is if Leica put electronic (whatever it is shutter, "auto" or merely lightmeter), that would not sell well (I can be wrong ! ).

If this new film Leica hit the market, "optical/mechanical" system would have longer "market life" and longer "using life".

 

We have in the past some examples of "electronic compatible Leica M", Minolta CLE and Konica Hexar RF

each one having desirable features, but had not so much succes.

I do have them, one each now, but I would not rely on them as my last M mount camera.

[logan2z]

22 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

I see no rational commercial sense for Leica to risk undermining their reputation and/or M-A and MP sales. 

I don't think a less expensive film camera would significantly eat into M-A/MP sales - someone willing to pay for the best new film camera Leica has to offer will likely not opt for the cheaper model.  But it could drive sales away from the used Mx market and into Leica's pocket instead. 

As to how Leica could bring an M film camera to market at a significantly lower price without it looking/feeling cheap, I honestly don't know. 

[a.noctilux]

5 minutes ago, logan2z said:

I don't think a less expensive film camera would significantly eat into M-A/MP sales - someone willing to pay for the best new film camera Leica has to offer will likely not opt for the cheaper model.  But it could drive sales away from the used Mx market and into Leica's pocket instead. 

As to how Leica could bring an M film camera to market at a significantly lower price without it looking/feeling cheap, I honestly don't know. 

And if Leica make the MP/M-A with too much profit.

With less profit and some kind of "marketing magic", a lesser/cheaper M (or p&s) can sell well maintaining same amount of profit and lasting more.

Edited January 3, 2021 by a.noctilux

[Ouroboros]

3 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

And if Leica make the MP/M-A with too much profit.

With less profit and some kind of "marketing magic", a lesser/cheaper M (or p&s) can sell well maintaining same amount of profit and lasting more.

Then why did Leica discontinue the summarit range? 
And where is the commercial rationale for any niche company that has built itself on perceived exclusivity to make new products with less profit?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[a.noctilux]

I don't know for Summarit-M lenses, even if I appreciate the line (I have/use 35/50/75 of the line).

Only I can suppose that with so many new lens makers (low cost) arriving on the same area, Leica just dropped the line.

 

In the film camera (M) market, only second hand units and price increasing, no other contenders.

 

To be positive, as MP selling price ( 4.540€ Paris price ) M-A at 100€ less,

maybe the "supposed" 1 000€ less expensive new M can compete and may boost selling units.

 

just saw ( here ... ) the same boutique sells second hand M3 at 2.500€ and M6 at 2.700€

each one from the early first batches 1955 ? 1986 ?

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by a.noctilux