UK Brexit Leica service suspended

[andybarton]

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23 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I suppose the problem may lay with who is eventually paid to do any repairs that may be the sticking point. But 'Return for repair under warranty' shouldn't be a cause for Customs Duty in either direction, and 'Temporary Export' also covers goods going back and forth where no money changes hands. 

The implication from the CS guy I spoke with was that they are concerned about tariffs and fees on re-patriating repaired cameras, lenses and scopes etc. None of these are known to anyone yet.

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[pgk]

49 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

No Photographica this year, of course, but I wonder if small EU traders will bother coming back to events like this when they (hopefully) resume?

I notice that some auctioneers currently offer items under a 'temporary import' system with vat being applied if the winning bidder is in the UK, or the item being re-exported if not. I assume that this system operates under some form of existing trade agreement but whether this is an EU one or not I do not know. A small trader will potentially at best need to complete paperwork for temporary importation from the EU to attend such an event, and at worst may need to pay and then reclaim duty. I doubt many will attend such fairs even after the Covid restrictions end, until that is it becomes bureaucratically and financially viable to do so.

[Steve Ricoh]

Well, if my M240 packs in I still have an M6 to enjoy my Leica glass whilst I wait for the mess to be resolved. 

The problem of cameras repairs applies to most if not all digital models, eg the Japanese manufacturers tend to have a European service centre and the same problems apply.

In a way it makes owning an analogue cameras a means of navigating the mess with a number of camera techs still providing an excellent service. 

 

[masjah]

So how on earth did we manage before EEC entry with regard to sending a camera to Wetzlar? Is there no old-timer there who recalls how it was done?

[Anbaric]

13 minutes ago, masjah said:

So how on earth did we manage before EEC entry with regard to sending a camera to Wetzlar? Is there no old-timer there who recalls how it was done?

It probably helped that everyone knew what the long-standing rules were, rather than having to react instantly to whatever arrangement (if any) is cobbled together at the last minute.

[willeica]

Even though we are staying in the EU, we will be affected. There is no longer a Leica dealer in Ireland as the only existing one resigned during the Summer; issues over stocking, I believe. I can, of course, buy anything I want from the Leicashop in Vienna without any additional duty, but the item will have to come to across the GB 'landbridge'. We are told that there will be an arrangement for this, but this is as yet unclear and will have to go in with all of the other issues affecting the island of Ireland on both sides of the Border, some of which are much more important to our economy than the importation and repair of Leicas. The issue of sending cameras to Wetzlar for repairs and potential duties has been around since the 1920s and Leica has always taken whatever measures it can to avoid the payment of duty. When I have sent items to Wetzlar or Solms myself they have always sent me a special UPS label to use, but it will be difficult to do that for British repairs until the post Brexit situation is determined. Irish repairs should be OK, if a little delayed. 

I largely buy vintage camera gear (mainly Leicas) and I use auctions in the EU such as Leitz, Wetzlar and Breker, all 3 in Germany, and LP in Sweden, which should all be fine, apart from the 'landbridge' issue. UK auction purchases such as those from the likes of SAS, Flints and Chiswick will probably attract extra duty and I will have to consider each time whether the additional charge should cause me to reconsider making bids. I also occasionally purchase items from the Tamarkin Auction in the US and the charges vary from severe to none at all. It really is pot luck. 

William

[TomB_tx]

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From an unwelcome outsider viewpoint, all the worry about Brexit should be a very transitory issue. After all, there was trade between countries long before the fairly brief EU period, and countries and companies made it work. I suspect many issues are raised by those hoping to quickly reverse Brexit. But then I tend to be suspicious of changing political situations between governments - as they seem to enrich those in power manipulating them...

[andybarton]

Before the EU, there was no EU with all its benefits and free trade 

So it was a completely different world. 

[LocalHero1953]

And UK trade patterns, and the EU itself were both very different pre 1973, when we joined.

[zeitz]

47 minutes ago, willeica said:

I also occasionally purchase items from the Tamarkin Auction in the US and the charges vary from severe to none at all. It really is pot luck. 

William, I have never been able to figure out US tariffs, coming into the US.  I do try to get the US Customs Schedule B code entered on the sellers customs form.  The seller's item descriptions might was well be written in cuniform because the customs person will have absolutely no idea what the item is.  They want to know it is a "film camera" , not a "Leica M4".  If the item is expensive, there may be a delay in clearing customs; if the item is cheap, they may just let it through because the tariff is not worth their effort. 

[willeica]

2 hours ago, zeitz said:

William, I have never been able to figure out US tariffs, coming into the US.  I do try to get the US Customs Schedule B code entered on the sellers customs form.  The seller's item descriptions might was well be written in cuniform because the customs person will have absolutely no idea what the item is.  They want to know it is a "film camera" , not a "Leica M4".  If the item is expensive, there may be a delay in clearing customs; if the item is cheap, they may just let it through because the tariff is not worth their effort. 

'Old camera parts' is one declaration that I have seen. It could be just a bag of screws or something like that, but they could X-Ray the package. In Ireland if the value is over 600 or 700 Euros you have to employ a customs agent who charges you and settles an exorbitant amount with the Revenue. Sometimes the Post Office will collect the amount due but they charge a smaller amount than the customs agents to calculate and collect. Other times there is no charge. It is as (in)consistent as that and your guess would be as good as mine as what might happen with the next package. The EU has ended all that for us insofar as European countries are concerned. I remember my father having to get a 'tryptich', a triangular windscreen sticker for his car windscreen to bring us all a few miles up the road to visit Northern Ireland for a day trip in the 1960s. We thought that we had left all of that behind, of course.

William

[jaapv]

4 hours ago, andybarton said:

Before the EU, there was no EU with all its benefits and free trade 

So it was a completely different world. 

And the economic power balance has shifted considerably as well.

[zeitz]

1 hour ago, willeica said:

'Old camera parts' is one declaration that I have seen.

In the US, old camera parts seldom helps.  Are the parts for cameras or lenses; are the parts for still cameras or movie cameras?  Are the parts new or used?  Where were the parts made?  That is why the Schedule B code helps, along with clear designation of new or used and the country of origin.  If the shipment is both a camera and a lens, the Schedule B code to be used is the one for the more expensive piece, be it the camera or the lens.  I have never had the US Postal Service charge duty; but EMS takes forever, and I never have anything of real value sent by EMS.  If DHL Express, FedEx or UPS are used, their agent expedites customs clearance for, what I consider, a reasonable fee.  Fees have ranged from $20 to $50; you are paying someone who knows the system to actually do some work.  Usually it takes one day longer than the original shipping estimated delivery date to clear customs even with the agent expeditor.  It is not uncommon in the US for the customs agent to actually call me on the telephone on an expedited shipment.  The expeditor fee and the tariff must be paid, by credit card to the courier service, before the package is delivered.

One request the auction houses don't seem to be able to do is keep the buyer's premium off the customs statement.  There is no duty on a buyer's premium; but the customs agent can't figure out why a potentially large number is on the customs statement in the first place, if it is just a fee.

[willeica]

6 hours ago, zeitz said:

In the US, old camera parts seldom helps.  Are the parts for cameras or lenses; are the parts for still cameras or movie cameras?  Are the parts new or used?  Where were the parts made?  That is why the Schedule B code helps, along with clear designation of new or used and the country of origin.  If the shipment is both a camera and a lens, the Schedule B code to be used is the one for the more expensive piece, be it the camera or the lens.  I have never had the US Postal Service charge duty; but EMS takes forever, and I never have anything of real value sent by EMS.  If DHL Express, FedEx or UPS are used, their agent expedites customs clearance for, what I consider, a reasonable fee.  Fees have ranged from $20 to $50; you are paying someone who knows the system to actually do some work.  Usually it takes one day longer than the original shipping estimated delivery date to clear customs even with the agent expeditor.  It is not uncommon in the US for the customs agent to actually call me on the telephone on an expedited shipment.  The expeditor fee and the tariff must be paid, by credit card to the courier service, before the package is delivered.

One request the auction houses don't seem to be able to do is keep the buyer's premium off the customs statement.  There is no duty on a buyer's premium; but the customs agent can't figure out why a potentially large number is on the customs statement in the first place, if it is just a fee.

The tax on premium is also an issue with auction items coming from the US to Europe. Auctions everywhere are subject to additional charges these days, particularly as local VAT authorities get involved. This also applies within the EU but at least we know the full list of duties and taxes before the goods are sent. If the US situation is replicated in the UK then that would definitely affect any EU business currently being done by the UK auctioneers.

One final point is that the US situation of advertising the net of tax price at retail level is actually illegal in Europe. Here tax and consumer protection laws insist that any retail prices advertised are fully tax inclusive. I should know about this as I used to enforce such laws at one point in my career. Auctions are different as they have  a form of ‘negotiated’ price, but within the EU you have the full final price on an invoice before the goods are sent to you.

William

[eibenbaum]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb earleygallery:

This is the problem, and growing by the day. Govt are blaming companies and individuals if the aren't ready, it's their fault. But until they - Govt. - have agreed whatever deal or no deal they are going to agree/not agree, how can anyone know what they should do?

I'm surprised there isn't more of an uproar about this, there certainly will be on Jan 1st!

most of the people wanted this,and they have to knock their head on

Edited November 28, 2020 by eibenbaum

[pedaes]

19 minutes ago, eibenbaum said:

most of the people wanted this

Err-NO. Think you need to define 'most' and 'this'.

Probably best not to bother, as may be deemed 'political', when of course it is much more than that.

Edited November 28, 2020 by pedaes

[pgk]

24 minutes ago, pedaes said:

Probably best not to bother, as may be deemed 'political', when of course it is much more than that.

Politics aside, we are going to see change. The problem is that we don't like change, nobody does. But in this case the change is going to happen very soon and we still have no clear idea of what the change will be or how it will be implemented or dealt with. I doubt that I am alone in having found substantially reduced demand for material imported from the EU because of uncertainty and I would say that demand is highly unlikely to pick up as prices go up (I very much doubt that they will go down somehow) and the economy takes another hit alongside Covid. Add in delivery uncertainty and increased paperwork (it IS increasing) and there is another reason to look again at viability. So along with many I will probably simply stop importing because it is no longer economically viable to do so. Its an incredibly frustrating mess.

[zeitz]

3 hours ago, willeica said:

One final point is that the US situation of advertising the net of tax price at retail level is actually illegal in Europe. Here tax and consumer protection laws insist that any retail prices advertised are fully tax inclusive.

Including tax in US prices would be impossible in the US because there is no national tax.  The sales taxes are imposed by local and state governments.  As a result they can vary considerably from one side of the street to the other, literally.  But international export sales from the US should not be taxed.  Just as sales that cross state lines are not taxed, unless the seller also has stores in the destination state.  Buyers are supposed to report cross state purchases on their state income tax return and pay the sales tax.  I don't think many do that.  A time or two I have gotten a bill for sales tax from my state for items that came through US customs.

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[willeica]

57 minutes ago, zeitz said:

Including tax in US prices would be impossible in the US because there is no national tax.  The sales taxes are imposed by local and state governments.  As a result they can vary considerably from one side of the street to the other, literally.  But international export sales from the US should not be taxed.  Just as sales that cross state lines are not taxed, unless the seller also has stores in the destination state.  Buyers are supposed to report cross state purchases on their state income tax return and pay the sales tax.  I don't think many do that.  A time or two I have gotten a bill for sales tax from my state for items that came through US customs.

So, is there a massive hole in the US Treasury due to cross state purchases? When I discussed this system with a Federal Trade Commissioner (my OECD opposite number) one time he said that the purpose of this was to give transparency to people about what their state taxes are. I am aware that items can be sent out of state without taxes, but the import duties to Ireland from the US are far greater than most US state taxes. The US system of adding taxes at the counter would cause a revolution over here. We have national taxes, but people here are used to getting the complete prices up front in advertising. Different strokes etc.

William

Edited November 28, 2020 by willeica

[zeitz]

34 minutes ago, willeica said:

So, is there a massive hole in the US Treasury due to cross state purchases?

In the US none of the sales tax goes to the US Treasury.  Sales tax is imposed by state / local governments with the state and local splitting the collected tax according to the rates approved by voters.  I think in my area the sales tax is about 9%.  About 6% goes to the state and about 3% goes to the local city/county governments.  The US government primarily gets all its money from income / corporate tax which is a tax on earnings, interest, dividends and gains such as on stock sales.  Most states also have income tax.  Wage earners also pay into Social Security (like a pension) and Medicare (health care assistance for those over 65).  Local governments also collect annual taxes on real estate and personal property (usually just cars).  Tariffs are really meant to protect domestic industry.

In my mind, the US tax system is a mess.  But you gets used to it.