Beginner's Guide to Shooting with M10 - Kindergarten Post

[MikeMyers]

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When I got my M10, I didn't do enough reading, and perhaps I misunderstood the advice below.  Is the following a reasonable way to start (and maybe continue) using the M10:

1 - based on past experience, set the ISO knob at the left to what you think might be a reasonable ISO

2 - set the lens aperture to what you think might be a reasonable aperture

3 - set the shutter speed knob to "A"

4 - aim camera, focus, then push the button in the middle of the joystick.  On the rear display, which will go active, you'll see the ISO you selected.  Below that, near the bottom, it will say "A" which stands for "Aperture Priority".  To the right of the ISO, you'll see a graph type thing from -3, to 0, to +3, and there will be a bar in the middle for ZERO.  All the way to the right of that will be a suggested shutter speed.  Let's say it says 1/30s meaning a 30th of a second.

5 - take a photo.  If it looks good, you're done.

5a - take a photo, and let's say it looks too dark, meaning it's underexposed - so instead of 1/30th second, manually turn the shutter speed dial to 15, meaning 1/15th second, which will lighten the photo

5b - take a photo, and let's say it looks too light, meaning it's overexposed.  Same as above, but instead of 1/30th, maybe you'll pick 1/60th, or whatever.

 

Based on the numbers, and the results, you'll soon have a good idea for what a reasonable ISO or Aperture might be to get the result you are after.  If you set those manually, and leave the shutter speed dial at "A", the display screen will give you what the camera thinks may be a proper shutter speed.

 

 

The reason I got so confused, is I was trying to do on the M10 what I used to do on the M8.2, sort of.  Then I started re-reading David Taylor's "Leica M10 - The Expanded Guide".  I used to look for white dots in the viewfinder and arrows to tell me which way to adjust the camera to get the proper exposure.  I also used to use the camera's "exposure compensation" control.  Now I've turned that off, and if I want 2 stops of exposure compensation, I'll accomplish that with the shutter, the aperture, or the ISO, whichever I think would be best for what I'm trying to do.

For the next several days, I plan to shoot in Aperture Priority mode, changing things as needed.  

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Edited November 13, 2020 by MikeMyers
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[Kwesi]

Hi MikeMeyers,

That is a very slow way to go about things. Your M8 method is much faster and the standard way.

2 things from your info panel above:

1 change the sun symbol to auto and 2 turn on lens detection.

I hope the screen grab below helps in setting the exposure. it lets you get t right before you take the picture.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[MikeMyers]

5 hours ago, Kwesi said:

Hi MikeMeyers,

That is a very slow way to go about things. Your M8 method is much faster and the standard way.

2 things from your info panel above:

1 change the sun symbol to auto and 2 turn on lens detection.

Kwesi, I need to do some more thinking about this.  Yes, the other way, as I did with the M8, is faster, but I never really *knew* what exposure I was using.  All I knew was that the icons told me the exposure was calculated to be OK.  If you read that (very long) link I quoted, he goes into a lot of reasoning why just because the camera thinks something is correct, doesn't mean it really is.  This is especially so when he discusses white balance.  I'll try to reply later today with a link to exactly where he says this, or use copy/paste.

(His article started out as just one more M10 article to read, but he got SO thorough about it and his reasons - when you have time, read it and then tell me what you think.

 

Yes, I turned on lens detection, but then spent a long time looking up the details on my (rather old) lenses, so I could find the specific setting for the 50 and the 35.  I still need to look up my 90.  This is going to be a pain - I wish I could save MY lens information somewhere, to make it easier to select whichever one I'm using at the time.  I guess this will go onto my iPhone, so I can quickly find it.  Search for 50mm f/2 for example, and you'll find more than one possibility, each identified with a number that didn't mean anything to me.  Between internet searches, and all the data collected by Ken Rockwell, I identified the proper numbers for my lenses.  I still don't know what that number really means.  My 50mm f/2 lens was eventually matched to "11817", but I don't know what 11817 means - is it a secret model number?

What I don't need, is a quick way of using the M10.  I could put the camera on AUTO and then forget about everything.  I want to use it while knowing what and why I'm using settings.  Hopefully I know enough about photography that I'll recognize something as being questionable, and make a change so I still get the best possible photo.   Once I'm good at this, I can then start using the M8 method as you suggested.

Curious - do all of you KNOW what the settings are for each photo you take, as you're taking it?  Or is it like with a Nikon, where you let the camera figure out what to do.

[jdlaing]

There is no “Auto” setting. There is an aperture priority setting but you still have the set the aperture.

[astrostl]

I would start by using aperture priority: set ISO dial to A (I set to max 12500), set Shutter Speed dial to A (I set auto to min 1/250s), set aperture on your lens, and shoot.

You can use exposure compensation (rear wheel can be set to it) from there. I tend not to, because I tend to forget it once set and accidentally misexpose everything I shoot from there  My favorite trick if I'm not happy with auto-exposure is to point at an exposure target (the rangefinder is center-weighted), half-press-and-hold the shutter, then recompose and click. A half-press-and-hold will assess and lock in exposure. This works for me the vast majority of the time. I go down to 1/30-1/60 if dealing with a stable subject in lower light, and sometimes manually set the ISO for something like landscapes.

[MikeMyers]

26 minutes ago, astrostl said:

I would start by using aperture priority: set ISO dial to A (I set to max 12500), set Shutter Speed dial to A (I set auto to min 1/250s), set aperture on your lens, and shoot.

You can use exposure compensation (rear wheel can be set to it) from there. I tend not to, because I tend to forget it once set and accidentally misexpose everything I shoot from there  My favorite trick if I'm not happy with auto-exposure is to point at an exposure target (the rangefinder is center-weighted), half-press-and-hold the shutter, then recompose and click. A half-press-and-hold will assess and lock in exposure. This works for me the vast majority of the time. I go down to 1/30-1/60 if dealing with a stable subject in lower light, and sometimes manually set the ISO for something like landscapes.

That would certainly be easier.  Given the ISO and the shutter speed, the camera can easily select an appropriate aperture.

Just wondering, did I spend all those thousands of dollars on the Leica, so it could make those decisions for me, which all my other cameras do so well?

I think I bought the Leica because it would put ME in control over everything.  Doing it the automated way, the camera only has one thing it can do, adjust the lens aperture to fit the ISO and shutter speed I left set on the camera.  It seems to me that since I presumably know what I want the final image to look like, I might prefer to select an aperture and ISO, and then see if the required shutter speed was acceptable, and if not, make other changes.

I can set my Fuji X100f, or my Nikon Df in a way that it will guarantee me a technically good image, but it might not be the image that maybe I would prefer.

Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud.  I need to learn the M10 all over again from the beginning.  I guess for now I need to leave "Auto Review" active, so I know I captured what I hoped to capture, but eventually I'd like to turn it off.  (I leave it active on my Fuji and Nikon because I don't trust them to capture what I want.  I hope eventually I'll get good at this again, and figure out in my head what I want the camera to do, then trust it to do just that and no more.

[MikeMyers]

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1 hour ago, jdlaing said:

There is no “Auto” setting. There is an aperture priority setting but you still have the set the aperture.

Yikes!  Yes, I understand.  I wish they had labeled it AP instead of just A.

I spent forever trying to figure out how to select "Aperture Priority Mode", and eventually learned that this is the "A" setting on the shutter speed dial.  Then there's an A on the ISO setting knob.  Since most people "know" what an "A" stands for, I was certain that's what the A on the shutter speed dial stood for.

I guess it's no big deal, now that I understand - thanks for pointing it out to me.

[M11 for me]

Underneeth your posts you publish a link to your photographs. It does not work 😣

[astrostl]

20 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

That would certainly be easier.  Given the ISO and the shutter speed, the camera can easily select an appropriate aperture.

Just wondering, did I spend all those thousands of dollars on the Leica, so it could make those decisions for me, which all my other cameras do so well?

I think I bought the Leica because it would put ME in control over everything.  Doing it the automated way, the camera only has one thing it can do, adjust the lens aperture to fit the ISO and shutter speed I left set on the camera.  It seems to me that since I presumably know what I want the final image to look like, I might prefer to select an aperture and ISO, and then see if the required shutter speed was acceptable, and if not, make other changes.

I can set my Fuji X100f, or my Nikon Df in a way that it will guarantee me a technically good image, but it might not be the image that maybe I would prefer.

Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud.  I need to learn the M10 all over again from the beginning.  I guess for now I need to leave "Auto Review" active, so I know I captured what I hoped to capture, but eventually I'd like to turn it off.  (I leave it active on my Fuji and Nikon because I don't trust them to capture what I want.  I hope eventually I'll get good at this again, and figure out in my head what I want the camera to do, then trust it to do just that and no more.

It's a highly-usable starting point, and you can choose to go as manual as you want from there. Even though I had been previously using manual focus, manual shutter, and manual aperture (but not ISO) on other camera systems I learned to love aperture priority for the first time after switching to an M10. Modern cameras do a hell of a lot more than autoexpose, though. And the M10+ is still doing a healthy amount of auto: it has a light meter, it has auto white balance, etc.

While I could maybe see flirting with it with an M10R to fix in post because of its deeper raw files, I don't think I'd ever go w/o chimping on the 24MP M10 sensor because of how the center-weighted light meter can result in irrecoverably blown highlights or underexposed shadows in high-DR situations (e.g. a bright window in the background).

[astrostl]

15 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Yikes!  Yes, I understand.  I wish they had labeled it AP instead of just A.

I spent forever trying to figure out how to select "Aperture Priority Mode", and eventually learned that this is the "A" setting on the shutter speed dial.  Then there's an A on the ISO setting knob.  Since most people "know" what an "A" stands for, I was certain that's what the A on the shutter speed dial stood for.

I guess it's no big deal, now that I understand - thanks for pointing it out to me.

The "A" on a given dial means "this will be handled automatically". To shoot in AP you need both ISO and SS set to A, but if you only had one or the other set (which is perfectly fine) you would no longer be in AP mode. Therefore, it wouldn't be possible to accurately label them as AP on the dials unless the dials were somehow synced.

[250swb]

I wish the OP good luck with making a Leica rangefinder camera change the aperture for him.

I think this is a case where the OP needs to read a book about photography before trying to understand anything else.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by 250swb

[MikeMyers]

This OP never wanted to have the aperture changed.  All this OP suggests is that the letter "A" on the shutter speed dial might not be the best choice, and after reading what 'astrostl' wrote, I'm even more sure of that.  

[astrostl]

What else could be put on the dials? They only control their own settings, not the settings of other dials. This is how it is on other manual-oriented systems as well, like Fuji (A on ISO, A on SS, and in their case also A on the lenses because it's electronic aperture).

[MikeMyers]

I might be the wrong person to ask.  Since you're asking anyway, I suggest AP, indicating that this is one of the settings for Aperture Priority mode.

I never considered it meant anything other than (A)uto when I went to look at the camera to get into Aperture Priority Mode.  I was staring right at it, and didn't realize what was right in front of me.

[Jeff S]

M for manual, as in read the manual.

Jeff

[MikeMyers]

I read this yesterday on https://www.overgaard.dk/Leica-M10-digital-rangefinder-camera-page-05-The-basic-Menu-Setup-and-other-useful-tips.html

Von Overgaard described his thought on Auto ISO better than what I've tried to do:

• " I never set the ISO dial to Auto. The reason I stay away from Auto is that I would lose control of my exposure. When the camera's ISO dial is at Auto, the camera decides for itself what the ISO should be, and I don't agree with that. I want to set it, and I want know what the ISO is at all times. 
• The only setting I change for a photo, is my exposure time. I will often start out with the shutter speed dial set to Aperture Priority, which means that the camera will suggest a shutter speed time. If I am facing a fairly normal scene, I can usually trust the camera's metering calculation.
• But I also know that if I am photographing night photography, the camera will try to make it look daylihgt. So instead of a correct looking exposure of 1/15 second, the camera will suggest 1/2 second or something (which would be eight times brighter than the correct exposure and will result in a too bright photo). In that case I might take a photo with what the cameras Aperture Priority suggests; look at the screen and then guess/decide for a manual exposure of for example 1/8 second; check the screen again and adjust till I am satisfied with the exposure, at for example at 1/15 second. With this I have overruled the camera's metering and is working manually."

 

I found it useful to read the whole article, some of which I'm still struggling to understand.  But for me, he did a good job of convincing me to make my own choices, and not trust the camera.

I'm still at the early part of my learning curve, and have been reading and re-reading lots of great information here.  I may be relatively new to the M10, but I've been learning more and more about photography since the 1960's.

[astrostl]

42 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

I might be the wrong person to ask.  Since you're asking anyway, I suggest AP, indicating that this is one of the settings for Aperture Priority mode.

I never considered it meant anything other than (A)uto when I went to look at the camera to get into Aperture Priority Mode.  I was staring right at it, and didn't realize what was right in front of me.

You need BOTH of them to be on A to be in aperture priority mode: aperture priority mode means, and only means, that you have manually set your aperture and that the camera is automatically setting BOTH ISO and shutter speed. If ISO is auto and SS is not, it isn't AP; if SS is auto and ISO is not, it isn't AP. I think putting "AP" on a dial setting _that would only mean that if both dials were set to it_ would be much more confusing than the cross-brand standard of "A" which means "automatically set this".

[jdlaing]

3 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Yikes!  Yes, I understand.  I wish they had labeled it AP instead of just A.

I spent forever trying to figure out how to select "Aperture Priority Mode", and eventually learned that this is the "A" setting on the shutter speed dial.  Then there's an A on the ISO setting knob.  Since most people "know" what an "A" stands for, I was certain that's what the A on the shutter speed dial stood for.

I guess it's no big deal, now that I understand - thanks for pointing it out to me.

The A in ISO is for automatic. The maximum ISO can be set.

 

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[MikeMyers]

From what I've been reading, the "A" on the ISO knob means automatic - the camera select what it thinks is appropriate, based on your selected settings for aperture and shutter..

"When the camera's ISO dial is at Auto, they camera decides for itself what the ISO should be, and I don't agree with that. I want to set it, and I want know what the ISO is at all times."

 

The "M" setting can be programmed to the maximum ISO you allow.  Right now I've got that set to 10,000.

[jdlaing]

8 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

From what I've been reading, the "A" on the ISO knob means automatic - the camera select what it thinks is appropriate, based on your selected settings for aperture and shutter..

"When the camera's ISO dial is at Auto, they camera decides for itself what the ISO should be, and I don't agree with that. I want to set it, and I want know what the ISO is at all times."

 

The "M" setting can be programmed to the maximum ISO you allow.  Right now I've got that set to 10,000.

No. The A on the dial means Aperture Priority meaning you select the aperture and the camera selects the shutter speed based on metering the camera detects. If you set the ISO to auto it also selects ISO for you. If you want to know in advance what ISO is sat you can look at the info screen or set the ISO to a known value.

Edited November 13, 2020 by jdlaing