Leica IIIf advance problems.

[jerzy]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Am 1.11.2020 um 21:56 schrieb Steve H:

I've just realised something.

There is a missing screw on the advance knob. Could this be related to my problem?

 

no, it does not. And most probably the screw is in, but you do not see it now. This is advance knob with film speed. In order to see and release the screw you need to lift the knob and rotate is as much as the screw appears in the hole. Attention - if you want to take the knob you must not loosen the screw more than 2 turns, it must stay inside. Otherwise outer part of the knob will rotate and you will be not able to unscrew the knob.

Regarding the other problem - I am afraid that you will need special tools and some knowledge to correct it, I will try to explain it here.
Photo belows shows what is under the top cover. Notch 1 moving insiode/outise when the slow speed knob is being rotated. In position 1/30 (25 on RD) it is most outside, in position T it is most inside (position A on photo) . 1/30th is the longest speed when slow speed clockwork is not engaged yet. Notice as well small notch B hidden partially under the speed disc (silver disc). When you release and the first curtain opens the shutter the second curtain starts to travel .Notch B rotates clockwise and is being stopped by notch 1. Notch B shifts 1 aside and at the certain point it is released to travel and close the shutter. When the first curtain fully opens a disc which is located at the bottom of the camera shifts the notch 1 up, towards your face, thus is can hold the second curtain. But when you start to wind, the notch 1 shall go down. During wind the silver disc and notch B rotate counterclockwise and in the position when is it almost fully wound (like in your example) notch B comes to the notch 1. If notch 1 is down, like it shall be, than notch B can move above notch 1 and you may fully wind. If there is something wrong and the notch 1 does NOT go down than notch B comes to the notch 1 and you cannot fully wind. 
When slow speed is at 1/30 - remember, clockwork is not engaged with this speed - notch 1 is far away enough that it does not disturb movement of B. But at any other slower speed notch 1 is more inside and it blocks the shutter to be wound.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

You may possibly do one thing: take bottom cover off, unscrew the plate with film loading instruction (3 screws), you will se something like this, here is shutter released, not wound.

Wind the camera and with some luck you might successfuly mobilize the rod moving notch 1 up and down by pressing and releasing sprong where the arrow shows. The problem is that you will hardly see if rod and notch are mobilized, the only one way to check is to set slow speed to anything else than 30. Ogf course it is mucnh easier to do it if top cover is off, but this is a different story

wish you good luck!

Edited November 3, 2020 by jerzy
spelling

[jerzy]

but do not be dissappointed when the procedure will not work, most probably it will not. There is a tiny spring under the top cover which shall push the notch and rod down, spring is visible on the first photo (closew to arrow with 1). If the spring is off or broken it will not move the rod down.....

[Steve H]

24 minutes ago, jerzy said:

no, it does not. And most probably the screw is in, but you do not see it now. This is advance knob with film speed. In order to see and release the screw you need to lift the knob and rotate is as much as the screw appears in the hole. Attention - if you want to take the knob you must not loosen the screw more than 2 turns, it must stay inside. Otherwise outer part of the knob will rotate and you will be not able to unscrew the knob.

Regarding the other problem - I am afraid that you will need special tools and some knowledge to correct it, I will try to explain it here.
Photo belows shows what is under the top cover. Notch 1 moving insiode/outise when the slow speed knob is being rotated. In position 1/30 (25 on RD) it is most outside, in position T it is most inside (position A on photo) . 1/30th is the longest speed when slow speed clockwork is not engaged yet. Notice as well small notch B hidden partially under the speed disc (silver disc). When you release and the first curtain opens the shutter the second curtain starts to travel .Notch B rotates clockwise and is being stopped by notch 1. Notch B shifts 1 aside and at the certain point it is released to travel and close the shutter. When the first curtain fully opens a disc which is located at the bottom of the camera shifts the notch 1 up, towards your face, thus is can hold the second curtain. But when you start to wind, the notch 1 shall go down. During wind the silver disc and notch B rotate counterclockwise and in the position when is it almost fully wound (like in your example) notch B comes to the notch 1. If notch 1 is down, like it shall be, than notch B can move above notch 1 and you may fully wind. If there is something wrong and the notch 1 does NOT go down than notch B comes to the notch 1 and you cannot fully wind. 
When slow speed is at 1/30 - remember, clockwork is not engaged with this speed - notch 1 is far away enough that it does not disturb movement of B. But at any other slower speed notch 1 is more inside and it blocks the shutter to be wound.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

You may possibly do one thing: take bottom cover off, unscrew the plate with film loading instruction (3 screws), you will se something like this, here is shutter released, not wound.

Wind the camera and with some luck you might successfuly mobilize the rod moving notch 1 up and down by pressing and releasing sprong where the arrow shows. The problem is that you will hardly see if rod and notch are mobilized, the only one way to check is to set slow speed to anything else than 30. Ogf course it is mucnh easier to do it if top cover is off, but this is a different story

wish you good luck!

Wow, that's some very detailed information and much appreciated. 

However, I don't fancy the idea of removing the top cover. I have however stripped the lower half of the camera down, even to the point of removing the timer mechanism (there's a very detailed video on youtube). I figured out quite quickly that the issue is at the top of the camera.  

Upon reassembling, I noticed that the issue had slightly cured itself. Now, when setting the slow dial to 1 or 10 there's no noticable resistance but there is some on 2, 4, 20 and 15 but not as much as before.

Other than a bit of oiling, i think I'll leave it alone now. I can still use it (once I buy a lens). 

Which brings me to another question. Which oil is best to use, and which parts do I apply it to?

[jerzy]

if you opened camera up to the clockwork for slow speed that you must have seen the rod which goes to it (left, close to the big shutter drum) When releasing the shutter it shall go up when starting to wind it shall  go down. Be carefull with oiling, too much oil is worse than nothing at all. Rod itself does not need oil, just a bit of grease where it moves clockwork mechanism. And if oil for other parts than watchmaker oil

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Steve,

Welcome to the Forum.

Please remember the old clock repair person's basic rule: You can never use too little oil.

And only lubricate the bearings or appropriate surfaces individually.

After making sure that they are properly clean. 

A significant number of mechanisms of these types need servicing because of too much or inappropriately placed oil.

By the way, old clocks use various types of clock oils. Dependent on type, size, use, circumstance, etc.

Just like old watches use various types of watch oils. Dependent on type, size, use, circumstance, etc.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited November 4, 2020 by Michael Geschlecht

[Matlock]

7 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

A significant number of mechanisms of these types need servicing because of too much or inappropriately placed oil.

By the way, old clocks use various types of clock oils. Dependent on type, size, use, circumstance, etc.

Just like old watches use various types of watch oils. Dependent on type, size, use, circumstance, etc.

 

Apparently my Great Grandfather was a watchmaker (I never knew him or my Grandfather). My Father told me that he had been instructed that to lubricate a watch (or clock) take a fine sewing needle and dip the tip in the oil, take it out and shake it and then just touch the place to be lubricated with the tip. This would probably be too much oil. I have no idea if that is correct but it sounds feasible. Incidentally I still have Great Grandfather's watchmakers eye glass. 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hello Matlock,

That is reasonably good advice. The oil should only be IN the bearings & ON certain (Not too many.) surfaces.

There is never too little oil.

And it needs to be the correct type.

Best Regards,

Michael

[Steve H]

6 minutes ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Matlock,

That is reasonably good advice. The oil should only be IN the bearings & ON certain (Not too many.) surfaces.

There is never too little oil.

And it needs to be the correct type.

Best Regards,

Michael

It is indeed good advice. I might have made the mistake of applying oil to every gear wheel and cam. Just a single drop to the centre of each should do. I've ordered the following items for this purpose.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Steve,

I think that a very fine sewing needle or a broach held in a pin vice is better than a "lubricator".  Please re-read Post # 26 just above. Shake the tip of the needle/broach IN the oil bottle.

Also, ask 1 of the people here what type of oil is appropriate.

Best Regards,

Michael

[pedaes]

Having only paid what you did, doesn't the camera deserve a CLA from a proven expert. I have had excellent service from Will van Manen with sensible turnaround times   https://www.kamera-service.info/index.php/en/

Although they are in the Netherlands the post cost is similar to UK address.

The top man in the UK is Malcolm Taylor if he is taking new work but it can be a long time before you get your camera back.

[Steve H]

8 minutes ago, pedaes said:

Having only paid what you did, doesn't the camera deserve a CLA from a proven expert. I have had excellent service from Will van Manen with sensible turnaround times   https://www.kamera-service.info/index.php/en/

Although they are in the Netherlands the post cost is similar to UK address.

The top man in the UK is Malcolm Taylor if he is taking new work but it can be a long time before you get your camera back.

That's something I will do in the future. I recently had a quote from cameraworks-uk.com. The cost of a full service with a 12 month transferable guarantee is £185. Other than major parts, service parts are included - even a new beamsplitter if needed.

So, when I can afford the outlay, I'll give it the treatment it deserves.

[Steve H]

36 minutes ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Steve,

I think that a very fine sewing needle or a broach held in a pin vice is better than a "lubricator".  Please re-read Post # 26 just above. Shake the tip of the needle/broach IN the oil bottle.

Also, ask 1 of the people here what type of oil is appropriate.

Best Regards,

Michael

I read in other places that a clock/watch oil is best because it's made for the fine movements of clocks and watches.

I will take your advice about how to apply the oil.

Any advice about what is best to use for an external clean?

[Reini]

Just lubricating isn"t good. The dirt remains.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Reini

[cary]

My advice is to have a CLA by someone who knows what they are doing. One stop shopping, no worries.

[Steve H]

A recent turn for the worse. I recently read about adjusting the slow speed dial by unscrewing the cap and tinkering with the screw and washer underneath to see if I could cure the clicking problem.

However, having turned the screw too much, it came away from the cam underneath.

Another strip down was needed to reattach the components.

The issue is, I don't know which way to orient the cam. (I've included a photo but its one I downloaded, so ignore the thing about loctite).

At the moment, with the main dial set to 30-1, I get the same shutter speeds from the slow dial on every number.  10, 15, 20, 30, 4, 2, 1 and T.

Any advice?

I won't be getting a service any time soon, not being in a position to spend £185. 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[jerzy]

English is not my native language, this is why I might have been not clear enough when I described (#21) how does it work - your problem is not related with horizontal movement of notch 1 thus not related to the position of slow speed dial. Problem is with movement up/down which and notch is blocking winding the shutter completly.

Please post the photos of your camera, I need to understand to which olevel you striped the camera in order to help you.

Have you received my PM (private message)?

[Steve H]

I have some new photos regarding my recent issue. As you can see, the dial is set at 30, however, the cam at the back came loose when I was adjusting it and I don't think it's in the correct position because of the reasons stated in my previous post.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[jerzy]

blue line shows position of the rod connecting notch 1 with clockwork for slow speeds located at the bottom of the camera. As explained earlier at 1/30 the rod must be most outside, so that the clockwork will not be engaged. However how the cam is positioned now it moves the rod most inwards, resulting in T. The cam needs to be rotated by 180 degree, at 1/30 cam should touch the rod at the point showed by arrow.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

When mounting the front plate take care that the brass bar will hook into L formed lever on clockwork - there is a hole in the front plate to control it. This bar is disabling part of clockwork for speeds 20 15 10. If mounted not correct 1/4 will be the same as 1/20, etc. And lastly you will need to adjust slow speeds - position the knob between 1 and T and adjust the screws so that shutter remains opened. Go back to 1 and check that it closes. Remember to fasten the middle screw after each adjustment and losen it for next adjustment

Edited November 6, 2020 by jerzy

[Steve H]

Wow, that's incredibly useful information. I'll get on to it now and let you know how i get on.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Steve H]

Do I need to adjust for each number. I managed to get the T and 1 set just right, but I'm having issues up the other end at 10, 15 and 20.