Leica M9 + Leica MM1 or single M10 body?

[Luke_Miller]

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Typo 128,000 ISO vice 12,800.

9 hours ago, Luke_Miller said:

Regarding shooting in low light.  I am an avowed high ISO junkie and love low light photography.  I have an event I shoot regularly that stresses my ability and equipment. Many of my images there are at ISO 12,800 (taken with Nikon D5). 

Typo: ISO 128,000 vice 12,800

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[kristyansen]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Luke_Miller:

Typo 128,000 ISO vice 12,800.

Typo: ISO 128,000 vice 12,800

Thank you, noted. To relativize the statement, what would such an event be / what light conditions?
 

I also agree that in bad quality lighting flash lighting is necessary and unreplaceable. 

[Luke_Miller]

13 hours ago, kristyansen said:

Thank you, noted. To relativize the statement, what would such an event be / what light conditions?

The event is a youth Christian Music concert.  Much of the time the only lighting on the audience is that from the stage.  The room has a black, light absorbing, ceiling which makes things worse and I shoot with f2.8 zooms.  Shooting the performers and those close to the stage is not a problem, but as I get further away is gets very dark.

[BrianS]

Leica M Monochrom, Canon 100/2 Wide-Open, 1/60th second, ISO 10,000. Skating Rink, when they turn the main lights off and Disco Lights on. I put the 85/1.5 on the M9 for an extra stop, bring the pair.

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[BrianS]

Same Day, Canon 85/1.5, wide-open, on the Leica M9, ISO 2500, 1/125 sec. This Canon lens is quite good.

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Just to add- my Nikon Df AF assist does not work in this lighting, too dark for it. I've used it at the same skating rink with all sorts of fast lenses, 50/1.2, 85/2, 135/2.3, etc. My hit rate is better with the RF of the M9 and M Monochrom. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by BrianS

[BrianS]

I picked up the 7Artisans 75/1.25 - Wide-Open on the M9, 1/90th sec, ISO 2500. I use a 1.25x magnifier when shooting with fast lenses.

This lens is a bargain at $450. I picked up the Canon 85/1.5 for about the same cost, but lots of patience required. 

I've taken the Df to the same rink, have some good shots like this with the manual focus 85/1.8, tend to use ISO 6400~12,800 when the lights are down.

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It's dark with the main lights turned out. This is about my limit for being able to focus the rangefinder in the dark. I prefer the optical finder over the SLR or mirrorless as I can pan with the subject during the instant of the exposure. My Daughter does not slow down for me to get the shot...

Edited October 29, 2020 by BrianS

[BrianS]

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M Monochrom at ISO 2500, 50/1.1 Nokton, wide-open. Beyond what we could get in Film days.

The phrase "Photograph Black Bears in Caves at Midnight" was popular 50 years ago talking about pushing Tri-X. And you could count the grain when pushing this much. Someone modified a Nikon F with small bulbs to "pre-flash" the negative during the exposure, the idea was to get the film past threshold of retaining an image. Kind of like raising the bias on an avalanche photodiode to increase sensitivity.

 

So- yes, I prefer my M9+M Monochrom over replacing them with an M10R. My Daughter during a tour in Skyline Caverns, Virginia.

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Edited October 29, 2020 by BrianS

[kristyansen]

Thank you Brian for making the case for M9 + M9Monochrom! Still considering my next step...

[Raymondl]

A really good post. I was talking about the Monochrome M camera with my wife and when she said.. "what it only takes photos in B&W".. she was bemused.. I think that's really the sole reason stopping me from considering Monochrom.. now my wife doesn't know much about cameras but she is my main "client/consumer" as I shoot a fair amount of photos of her and our family (weekly).. the practicality 

Monochrome.. it's the commitment to only taking (beautiful) B&W photos.. I just can't imagine going on holidays and taking solely monochrome photos... so if I do need to bring another M camera.. the utilisation will be impacted..so in my mind.. is it worth the financial commitment / is it for me ? I think my funds could be better put to procure a used M10 or put forward towards the M10-R that would produce files that can pushed further in post production (to personal taste) if required. 

I probably won't replace my M9.. I think my next M camera is to solely supplement my M9.

In the meantime I will enjoy my M9.

 

[Luke_Miller]

1 hour ago, Raymondl said:

A really good post. I was talking about the Monochrome M camera with my wife and when she said.. "what it only takes photos in B&W".. she was bemused.. I think that's really the sole reason stopping me from considering Monochrom.. now my wife doesn't know much about cameras but she is my main "client/consumer" as I shoot a fair amount of photos of her and our family (weekly).. the practicality

I'm in the same situation.  Most of my photography is of my wife's family and others who prefer color.  When I shoot for me it is the Monochrom.  If I had to have but one Leica it would be (currently) the M10-R.  It is the only body that would be able to produce B&W conversions that capture the same fine details and textures I love from my MM and M246.  

[kristyansen]

Is the M10-R indeed as accurate in both color and B&W tones? Also for (at least theoretically) being able to produce large exhibition-quality prints like from good film? 

[Raymondl]

57 minutes ago, kristyansen said:

Is the M10-R indeed as accurate in both color and B&W tones? Also for (at least theoretically) being able to produce large exhibition-quality prints like from good film? 

There is an entire thread at the moment talking about this topic.

If you have time there are some sample galleries where you can download the DNG files to review (post production) below. What I have noticed for my requirements ( YES  )

 

 

[Edgar1920]

Am 28.10.2020 um 13:35 schrieb kristyansen:

Building on the great insights, introducing a variation of the initial thoughts that still go through my head. 

 

1. Great masters in photography have gotten great pictures with low ISO, Color and B/W for a long time. Classical style will live forever. 

=> So I know at some point in time I will have a MM(1?) together with my M9.

 

Still...

2. For traveling I think one single camera may be the choice. Also I shoot people and family, in movement, and not landscapes.

3. Family likes color (B/W nice to have).

4. For family, often the low usable ISO of the M9 was an issue - smiling 1 second longer was tough, or closer aperture for larger depth of field was not doable in lower light.

5. I do shoot in low light too - I am generally used to exploiting to the max lower M9 ISOs - still I had situations where I would have liked the ISO 2500 of the M9 to be usable in color. 

6. Last anecdote: I recently I shot a baptism with M9 and slightly dampened SF-24D flash (with permission; also the kid loved it). Went well - still slightly higher ISO would have made flash a lot less or totally unnecessary.

=> A color single body with slightly higher usable ISO may be the next step.

=> For a more reasonable price I am considering now either an M240 or M-P 240 (i.e. with screen). I liked it a lot more than I thought when I tested it (even the size. Color-wise, the reds ran a bit wild). But I have not tested the really low light capabilities. Unsure if the larger buffer of the P is worth it. And future-orientation is a question too - will it be serviceable long enough?

 

Any thoughts and experience appreciated. 

Dear Kristyansen

I can very well understand your thoughts and I have done the step beyond your scenario described.

After purchasing my M9 years ago I had a good occasion to buy a MM1, at that time especially for higher ISO capabilities and the fascination of BW workflow.

In between the MM1 inspired me to shoot more BW film. And this in the last years I had to take her out consciously. And it was a pleasure each time again. But more and more focussing on BW film workflow (which film type, which exposure, which developer) my MM1 became more and more neglected.

On the other hand I shoot often in family events like weddings etc (okay now in COVID times not) and often struggle a bit with the acceptable ISO capabilities for my taste. So during more than a year I grew my decision to upgrade to a M10 or M10-R model.

That finally happened one month ago with a good deal on a used M10 that cost me 1000€ more than the price I got for my MM1 that I have sold before.

And for me it was the totally right decision. The M10 just feels like two evolution steps farther than the M9: everything a little better but nothing missing.

Unfortunately I had no occasion until now to try it on family events and this will probably be the situation until next spring. But my first trials show me that 2 steps ISO higher will deliver at least equal picture quality. So instead of using f/1.4@1/30s I can take pictures with f/2@1/60s and get better focused and less blurred pictures.

On the other hand I only use film (and even only one sort from now on: Kodak Double-X from 100-1600 ISO) when “really” shoot BW.

I think for BW capabilities the M10 will deliver excellent quality, too as eben does my M9. And real-life difference to MM1 can be only found in 1:1 comparisons.
Just the thing that is not really missing if you don’t have but that might become enchanting if you have it.

I hope my post does help you in one or another way.

Best regards.

Frank

[AceVentura1986]

I bought my ME in 2012 and my MM1 in 2015 on close out. I still have both and use both depending on my needs. From what I read, the M10 is a great camera, but I just can’t justify the cost of an upgrade. The two serve my needs quite well. 

[T25UFO]

I had the original MM1 but when the sensor failed I decided to trade it for MP240 - had a good trade in offer from Leica Mayfair.  I regretted almost immediately and wished I had kept the MM1.  Fast forward a few years and I placed an order for the M10M - this was long before its official announcement. Then I read an article posted by @jonoslack about refurbished MM1s and ordered one - at the time there was still no news that M10M would see the light of day.

Waited four months for my nice refurbished MM1 to arrive - chrome body, boysenberry red leather - it looked fantastic and only just over 100 shutter actuations.  Two weeks later the M10M was officially announced!  I was second in the queue at my local dealer so my camera came almost straightaway.  Decision: do I keep the lovely (but still 10 year old design) or go for the newer model?  I decided to trade the MM1 and didn’t actually lose any money - my wife said that was a first!

Absolutely no regrets and now use the M10M with 50mm APO virtually glued permanently to the camera.  I am, however, intrigued by the new Q2M and if I was starting with a clean sheet of paper today I might just go with a Q2 & Q2M combination.  It’s nice to have options.

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, T25UFO said:

I had the original MM1 but when the sensor failed I decided to trade it for MP240 - had a good trade in offer from Leica Mayfair.  I regretted almost immediately and wished I had kept the MM1.  Fast forward a few years and I placed an order for the M10M - this was long before its official announcement. Then I read an article posted by @jonoslack about refurbished MM1s and ordered one - at the time there was still no news that M10M would see the light of day.

Waited four months for my nice refurbished MM1 to arrive - chrome body, boysenberry red leather - it looked fantastic and only just over 100 shutter actuations.  Two weeks later the M10M was officially announced!  I was second in the queue at my local dealer so my camera came almost straightaway.  Decision: do I keep the lovely (but still 10 year old design) or go for the newer model?  I decided to trade the MM1 and didn’t actually lose any money - my wife said that was a first!

Absolutely no regrets and now use the M10M with 50mm APO virtually glued permanently to the camera.  I am, however, intrigued by the new Q2M and if I was starting with a clean sheet of paper today I might just go with a Q2 & Q2M combination.  It’s nice to have options.

Hi There

It is nice to have options, but I think that generally speaking if you shoot black and white all the time then the M10M is a better option than the Q2M (with a number of riders about AF etc.). I shoot lots of colour . . . and having both a colour and Monochrom M camera caused me some confusion (wrong lens on camera wrong camera to the eye etc.). But I'm finding that the combination of my M10r for colour and the Q2M for black and white is perfect - different camera for different purpose, and no confused muscle memory!

[Jeff S]

On 11/28/2020 at 3:19 PM, jonoslack said:

Hi There

It is nice to have options, but I think that generally speaking if you shoot black and white all the time then the M10M is a better option than the Q2M (with a number of riders about AF etc.). I shoot lots of colour . . . and having both a colour and Monochrom M camera caused me some confusion (wrong lens on camera wrong camera to the eye etc.). But I'm finding that the combination of my M10r for colour and the Q2M for black and white is perfect - different camera for different purpose, and no confused muscle memory!

Hey Jono, have you compared b/w conversions out of the M10-R to any of the Monochroms?  I shoot with the M10 and M Monochrom v.1, and find that the benefit of the MM is as much or more about the process as the file quality (which is superb), particularly given trade offs between use of color filters vs color channels in post.  But I’ve never shot with the M10-R or M10 Monochrom.

Jeff

[Marac]

I have been all around the universe with digital M's and I have arrived almost where I started.

I have the M9M (new sensor)

Just got another M9 (corroded sensor) that I will have repaired and I'm quite pleased about that because, ... Years ago when I had my M9 and M9M combi, the M9 developed corrosion and it was repaired by Leica FOC, yipee. BUT, and I could be alone here, I noticed the new sensor they used just didn't have the 'zing' of the old sensor, colour was definitely different, I decided to sell it etc etc. Now with these companies replacing just the sensor covering but keeping the original sensor is the very reason I have just got another M9 with corrosion.

I think, for the kind of stuff I do (non-professional) this combination is perfect. Strangely enough, the only other colour option that has delighted me was the CL, lovely little camera, gave mine to the wife so I can still use it

I really loved my M8 too, it certainly had heaps of character. 

 

Apart from the fact that I cannot afford an M10, I have used one, very 'sexy' gorgeous camera but out of my budget.

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[kristyansen]

Hi All,

Short update: I have purchased on a very good deal an M9 Monochrome (2nd generation sensor). I continue to use my M9 with minimal corrosion mostly wide open while I can, while considering options (repair, another M camera, etc). 
 

@Marac I had the same journey, sold my M9-P that I once had after FOC sensor upgrade since colors had changed and purchased an M9 with an original sensor - so you are not alone.  Consider though that Leica’s 2nd generation sensor was basically the same sensor with a new cover glass too, so replacement options available now from 3rd parties (who are great for offering them!!) may slightly affect colors too. 
 

Kind regards, 

Chris.