Sony A7C - poor man's Digital M (?!)

[martinot]

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Yes, can fully understand that. A great choice with UV applications for a mirrorless camera (I would also not think about using my M camera for that).

Add to that the fact that you will not change anything on the Sony menus while diving (not recommended on most UV houses that I have used), and that any opinion or reservartion one might have against Sony's ergonomics (or lack thereof) is mostly irrelevant when the camera is contained in such a UV-house. 

BTW; Looks like a fantastic sturdy and nice UV house!

[Dennis]

Sony A7c VS Panasonic S5 VS Nikon Z5 ... All new entry 24MP FF mirrorless cameras. Wow. They just launch them. It's a war out there, pure paradox of choice. They whisper to us LOL.
I admit that every time it comes out a new camera, a check the specs, I compare, I think, etc. But it's madness, it's crazy how many options there are out there.

But apart from that, how beautiful it is to shoot through an OVF ... 

 

[lykaman]

Looking at the superb images the CL and some other smaller sensors produce... Will these newer FF sensors really improve on the overall image quality?  Certainly never been tempted by Sony, looking at the hotch potch of buttons on the back of the A7C I don't think I will be changing my mind..  Spend away Guys N Gals.. For me, anything to do with GAS must have the Red dot             L

[pippy]

I'm really struggling to understand why you ask whether it is "a poor man's digital M" if it isn't a manual-focus rangefinder camera.

Have I missed something?

Philip.

[AZN]

11 hours ago, pippy said:

I'm really struggling to understand why you ask whether it is "a poor man's digital M" if it isn't a manual-focus rangefinder camera.

Have I missed something?

Philip.

 🤦‍♂️

The following URL may be of help:

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2020/09/15/using-the-sony-a7c-with-leica-m-mount-lenses-is-an-overdue-dream/

Mind you, after reading quite a few different reviews of pre-production models, it would seem that Sony cut a few too many corners with the a7C.  

Oh well, it cost nothing to consider potential options.  The search continues…

[pippy]

32 minutes ago, AZN said:

 ...The following URL may be of help...

Sorry if I'm being thick but I still don't understand where you are coming from.

It's nothing like a Leica M in any way whatsoever. Absolutely none. In what respect is using a Sony mirrorless camera even remotely like using a Leica M?

As mark3996 mentioned way back in post #5 if anyone wants a Leica M experience for under 2k then they can buy a used Leica M9. Why would anyone who really wants the Leica rangefinder experience buy a Sony mirrorless camera instead?

Perhaps you have something in your mind when you see Leica M and Sony cameras which hasn't ocurred to me? Perhaps we just perceive these different cameras in different ways from one another?

Philip.

Edited September 16, 2020 by pippy

[pgk]

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21 minutes ago, pippy said:

It's nothing like a Leica M in any way whatsoever. Absolutely none. In what respect is using a Sony mirrorless camera even remotely like using a Leica M?

We go around this particular circle every so often. In essence its nothing to do with the cameras and everything to do with the principle of optical excellence versus digital/optical excellence. Putting M lenses on any digital camera not designed to make appropriate adjustments to their files or not designed to deal with their quirks, undermines their optical characteristics, but they are, on Leica cameras, superb. I have an M to Sony adapter by Metabones, which works very well. However using the M lenses on a Sony is a compromise and whilst I've tried doing so, its a waste of my time IMO. The Sony lenses are better suited to Sony cameras although they are, as most lenses are today, bulky.

The intrinsically difference, and appealing to some of us, rangefinder bit is irrelevant I'm afraid.

The Sony mirrorless is like an M camera only in that its sensor can be used to create images from them. And FWIW I do use my Sony with numerous (old) lenses as it is a good compromise in many ways, but gven that I have M digital bodies, I don't do so with M lenses because there is no point.

[pippy]

5 minutes ago, pgk said:

...The intrinsically difference, and appealing to some of us, rangefinder bit is irrelevant I'm afraid...

Ah! That thought hadn't occurred to me, Paul.

Thank you.

Philip.

[AZN]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

The intrinsically difference, and appealing to some of us, rangefinder bit is irrelevant

I agree, completely irrelevant for me. Hopeless anachronism IMO. Spend far more time looking directly at a scene than peering through any viewfinder on any camera. To each their own. I am merely looking for something more compact and lighter than my current camera options.

Also, M lenses longer than 50mm work fine on any mirrorless digital camera. Pick your favourite brand. 😃 

[rramesh]

There are many great FF cameras from the likes of Sony, Canon and Nikon. And they will take photographs comparable to a Leica. 
 

However none of them are manual rangefinders. Any attempt to compare them with an M and calling them a ‘poor man’s Digital M’ is not a valid comparison. 

[Herr Barnack]

If we are leaving M cameras and lenses out of the discussion due to price, I'd take a Fuji X100V over the A7C any day.

[carbon_dragon]

Ok, first I too see the A7C as a sort of next generation Nex-7. I converted over to Sony when the Nex came out and used my Leica M lenses. It was a compact, lightweight camera. It didn't have a rangefinder but it had a pretty nice EVF built-in and you could adapt ANY kind of lens (and I had a lot of different kinds). I thought it was pretty cool and got a lot of use out of it. In a way, Leica could have one with very similar stats tomorrow if they just built the Q3 with an interchangeable lens mount. I think they should. Because NOW that they have admitted they have no intention of using expensive and heroic means of keeping the digital Ms going (even though other companies have happily stepped in), they need to start converting over to cameras with more "normal" build quality and features and the Q3 with interchangeable mounts would address that nicely. 

That said, I did buy an M8 when I could but then since I couldn't afford the M9 when it came out, I bought a Canon 5D and shot with that for a while and eventually bought a used M9. I do keep converting back to Leica but at some point I have to admit I'm pretty drawn to the A7s since I'm an old Minolta user. As wonderful as the Ms are, I'm not sure they are a viable long term proposition at the price. The M10 might be my last digital M, I'm not sure yet (bought that used too but it hurt).

This shot was a Leica lens on a Nex-7.

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[pippy]

9 hours ago, carbon_dragon said:

...NOW that they have admitted they have no intention of using expensive and heroic means of keeping the digital Ms going...

Have they?

I had absolutely no idea that Leica was about to discontinue the M range of cameras. Where did you read that, carbon_dragon? If you could post an official link from Leica themselves that would be perfect but saddening. Thanks in advance!

Philip.

Edited September 16, 2020 by pippy

[martinot]

10 hours ago, rramesh said:

There are many great FF cameras from the likes of Sony, Canon and Nikon. And they will take photographs comparable to a Leica. 
 

However none of them are manual rangefinders. Any attempt to compare them with an M and calling them a ‘poor man’s Digital M’ is not a valid comparison. 

Totally agree. I have 12-14 different great DSLR and mirrorless cameras (and 30-40 fantastically good lenses for them, many competing well with the best of Leica). Yet, I still bought into the M system last year. I wanted that digital rangefinder experience (have used analog M some years ago) explicitly. For me I would not look at the M cameras if they did not have the optical rangefinder.

I am not any religious Leica user (even if I do admire the company, their products, and appreciate their history). I would be happy to buy a modern digital rangefinder from Zeiss or Epson if they made any new cameras today.

But today it is only Leica who gives us this treasure of the fun, zen-like and creative way of using manually focused lenses with rangefinder optics, and combined with modern digital sensors (too lazy to shoot with and develop film). I am really thankful for Leica that they still provide us with this possibility. I would not mind future development, like for example a combined rangefinder-VF and EVF (would be great if they can pull it off, which I think is really hard). But any new M camera must have at least a rangefinder focus option. If it will be EVF-only I will not be buying any future M-cameras.

For mirrorless it is not the same case: You have so many different vendors and systems to choose from. Not only from Leica or Sony. You have many great, or perhaps even better, options from Fuji, Nikon, Panasonic and Canon.

Edited September 16, 2020 by martinot

[Alexandre Petrescu]

On 9/12/2020 at 10:17 PM, AZN said:

FWIW I will be buying one.  Should work fine with the Voigtlander 40mm Nokton, along with longer M lenses.

Need a lightweight and compact camera for the landscape stuff I am currently doing.  Toting a 1.5 kg camera/ lens combo gets old fast when trekking 10km a day and humping up and down ++150m hills.

Was looking at one of the digital Ms, but no.  The M10-R is $AUD 13.5K while the M10-P is $AUD 11.8K.  I have the money, but IMO the price just isn't worth it.

https://leica-store.com.au/categories/camera_systems/leica_m/m_cameras

Finally, smashing a $2K camera hurts a lot less than something ++3x more expensive 😃

Me too I am looking for a lightweight setting to take good photos and last long.  These are my quick calculations:

Canon RP non-leather (485g), adapter (120g)  and Voigtl\änder 40mm f/1.4 (175g) makes for: 780g.

Leica M-A non-leather (leatherette?) (578g), film (50g) and same V 40/1.4 (175g): 803g.

Leica M10-D leather (660g) and V 40/1.4 (175g):  835g.

Sony A7C (509g) and Voigtlander 40/1.2 (420g): 929g.

(I never had a Leica)

(I am also  considering carrying around just a viewfinder, like the 40mm, frame to understand, and only later bring a camera if necessary)

Edited September 17, 2020 by Alexandre Petrescu

[carbon_dragon]

15 hours ago, pippy said:

Have they?

I had absolutely no idea that Leica was about to discontinue the M range of cameras. Where did you read that, carbon_dragon? If you could post an official link from Leica themselves that would be perfect but saddening. Thanks in advance!

Philip.

I think you're being a little silly here. I have no reason to believe the Ms are going away and I never even hinted that was the case. But now that we know that the $8000 can't be spread out over a couple of decades of use, it only makes sense that Leica will start putting a little more marketing emphasis on it's non M cameras. Making the CL full frame or the Q2 an interchangeable lens camera would be a great start. It will be interesting to see what M sales do over the next 5 years.

[martinot]

50 minutes ago, carbon_dragon said:

I think you're being a little silly here. I have no reason to believe the Ms are going away and I never even hinted that was the case. But now that we know that the $8000 can't be spread out over a couple of decades of use, it only makes sense that Leica will start putting a little more marketing emphasis on it's non M cameras. Making the CL full frame or the Q2 an interchangeable lens camera would be a great start. It will be interesting to see what M sales do over the next 5 years.

I agree it would be a great move if Leica made an FF version of CL (or convert Q-series to L-mount - would love that camera if they did, as it is too big for me as a compact camera).

What I think Pippy reacted to, and I did as well, was the part you said "NOW that they have admitted they have no intention of using expensive and heroic means of keeping the digital Ms going".

I would also be seriously interested to know what you base that knowledge/statement on?

 

[pippy]

1 hour ago, carbon_dragon said:

I think you're being a little silly here. I have no reason to believe the Ms are going away and I never even hinted that was the case...

Then why on Earth did you type;

"NOW that they have admitted they have no intention......of keeping the digital Ms going..."

Goodness Me! You might have given someone a heart attack!...I now realise that you were merely discussing the future unavailability of 'bits'. That's fine.

Carry On, Everyone!

Philip.

Edited September 17, 2020 by pippy

[jdlaing]

On what planet is a Sony mirror less camera a Leica M?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lykaman]

Thoughts Please:- If one put a Leica 28mm Elmarit onto the A7C would it be comparable with the Q2 in respect of IQ?