I would like to buy an M7 but...

[carbon_dragon]

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Well, Leica's recent statement that sensor production for the M9 is coming to an end and after those are done they won't be repairable is something of a wakeup call. This is similar to basically what every other camera maker does, not just Leica. Yes Ms are built tough and the mechanical parts will last forever, but the electronics going and not having parts is going to be a potential issue going forward. I don't think that (with the exception of the M9 sensor) Leica has any special reliability issues like the old Contax RTS SLR cameras had. I suspect the M7s and M6s will probably go on for quite a while, maybe your lifetime. But it is a risk and a valid point to take into account. An earlier M like an M4 or M2 would be safer in that respect, but you might ENJOY using the M7 more and that is a meaningful consideration too.

[250swb]

2 minutes ago, carbon_dragon said:

Well, Leica's recent statement that sensor production for the M9 is coming to an end and after those are done they won't be repairable is something of a wakeup call. This is similar to basically what every other camera maker does, not just Leica. Yes Ms are built tough and the mechanical parts will last forever, but the electronics going and not having parts is going to be a potential issue going forward. I don't think that (with the exception of the M9 sensor) Leica has any special reliability issues like the old Contax RTS SLR cameras had. I suspect the M7s and M6s will probably go on for quite a while, maybe your lifetime. But it is a risk and a valid point to take into account. An earlier M like an M4 or M2 would be safer in that respect, but you might ENJOY using the M7 more and that is a meaningful consideration too.

Do you not think it's an inevitability of business and nothing to do with Leica? Whoever makes the sensor for the M9 isn't going to want a production line tied up on the basis that they get a few orders per year, and if they could the costs would have to be met by the end customer and eventually the sensor will cost more than the camera is worth.

[carbon_dragon]

1 minute ago, 250swb said:

Do you not think it's an inevitability of business and nothing to do with Leica? Whoever makes the sensor for the M9 isn't going to want a production line tied up on the basis that they get a few orders per year, and if they could the costs would have to be met by the end customer and eventually the sensor will cost more than the camera is worth.

Yes. It makes me sad though.

[otto.f]

2 minutes ago, 250swb said:

Do you not think it's an inevitability of business and nothing to do with Leica? Whoever makes the sensor for the M9 isn't going to want a production line tied up on the basis that they get a few orders per year, and if they could the costs would have to be met by the end customer and eventually the sensor will cost more than the camera is worth.

I doubt if that counts so much for a few circuits in an M7, but I don’t know anything about electronics. After all, Leica does have a tradition and reputation as being a repairable camera as opposed the many Japanese brands in the past. I also trust that Leica would always try to hold that reputation if it doesn’t cost her too much. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by otto.f

[carbon_dragon]

My Contax RTSIII has a LOT more electronics than the M7 does, and when my viewfinder displays were starting to fail, I could still use the camera. It just had some distracting stuff in the view. I managed to get that repaired with some connections in Japan (or rather my usual repair guy had some connections in Japan) but the point is that just because you get a problem with the cameras electronics doesn't necessarily mean that it's not useable. 

You never know. MOST of my older cameras with electronics are still working perfectly decades after being made. 

[Matlock]

23 minutes ago, carbon_dragon said:

Well, Leica's recent statement that sensor production for the M9 is coming to an end and after those are done they won't be repairable is something of a wakeup call. This is similar to basically what every other camera maker does, not just Leica. Yes Ms are built tough and the mechanical parts will last forever, but the electronics going and not having parts is going to be a potential issue going forward. I don't think that (with the exception of the M9 sensor) Leica has any special reliability issues like the old Contax RTS SLR cameras had. I suspect the M7s and M6s will probably go on for quite a while, maybe your lifetime. But it is a risk and a valid point to take into account. An earlier M like an M4 or M2 would be safer in that respect, but you might ENJOY using the M7 more and that is a meaningful consideration too.

The decision was not of Leica's making as the sensor was outsourced, the original being made by Kodak. "Our vendor for the sensor has discontinued manufacturing CCD sensors, and as such we no longer have these sensors in stock – further noting that subsequent deliveries are no longer possible".

It’s an unfortunate development to be sure, but it seems Leica had no control over the timing or consequences of this unnamed vendor’s decision to stop producing CCD sensors

[andrew01]

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If I was the OP I think I would seek out a nice M6.  There’s no reasons why an electronic camera can’t last for decades, but there is an element of luck involved.  I still have a Nikon F3 and Canon New F1 from the 80’s and they still work fine.

[Peter_S]

It`s not like you are buying a house or car here. Sure, 2600 (if that is an appropriate price is another matter) is a lot of money, but even if you use it for 10 years, and something brakes and no spare parts are available (which I doubt), you had 10 years of pleasure using a fine camera. And chances for that are so slim, I would spend my time worrying about something else. You want an M7, can afford an M7, get an M7. If it stretches your budget to the point that it would be a disaster, then, yes, maybe get something else.
I use a Contax T3, Contax T and a Bessa III, and the last thing I worry about are spare parts. I like them, use them, because they are what I need at the moment.


 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Peter_S

[250swb]

6 hours ago, otto.f said:

I doubt if that counts so much for a few circuits in an M7, but I don’t know anything about electronics. After all, Leica does have a tradition and reputation as being a repairable camera as opposed the many Japanese brands in the past. I also trust that Leica would always try to hold that reputation if it doesn’t cost her too much. 

With respect I think if you don't rearrange your expectations in a faster moving age you are doomed to be forever disappointed. Sure you can still get a 60 year old mechanical camera repaired, but would you equally still like a trip into space in Vostok 1? This is 1st World armchair gripes, not so far removed from 'I've always driven down this road in the morning and always cut the same corner until today when somebody else dared to be in the same spot!' 

[earleygallery]

14 hours ago, wattsy said:

Do you know that as a verified fact or are you just speculating? I know the model has been discontinued but I do not recall Leica stating that they can no longer repair the camera.

I definitely recall someone on here saying their M7 couldn't be repaired. I think - but may be wrong - it was to do with the electronics rather like the M6TTL (which cannot be repaired if the metering becomes faulty, although of course that still works as a manual non metered camera).

Perhaps I should revise my remark to say that apparently some faults cannot be repaired.

[Matlock]

8 hours ago, earleygallery said:

I definitely recall someone on here saying their M7 couldn't be repaired.

Yes someone told my neighbour that they had heard from a friend who had overheard in a shop that it was told them by an acquaintance who, in turn, had overheard it, and so on....😆

This forum runs on guesses and assumptions but we need facts.

 

In the meantime, the M7 is a great camera.

[carbon_dragon]

23 hours ago, Matlock said:

The decision was not of Leica's making as the sensor was outsourced, the original being made by Kodak. "Our vendor for the sensor has discontinued manufacturing CCD sensors, and as such we no longer have these sensors in stock – further noting that subsequent deliveries are no longer possible".

It’s an unfortunate development to be sure, but it seems Leica had no control over the timing or consequences of this unnamed vendor’s decision to stop producing CCD sensors

That isn't entirely true. As soon as the M9 problem started happening,  they knew supply was eventually going to be a problem. And Kodak has been on life support for years. They COULD have seen it coming and they could have provided a better outcome for their customers. How about this -- Give customers whose M9 cannot be repaired a voucher for  some set amount of money if they send it in to Leica, say $1500 or more depending on what the value of the parts are for Leica. Then let the customers spend those vouchers on any gear in any Leica dealer (new or used). The customer will know exactly what he's getting for his old camera and he'll have some options on what to spend the money on. 

You need to be profitable, and you need to make money, but this is the worst  design problem they've had with a camera and it might be worth working a little harder to see their customers have a softer landing.

[250swb]

4 hours ago, carbon_dragon said:

That isn't entirely true. As soon as the M9 problem started happening,  they knew supply was eventually going to be a problem. And Kodak has been on life support for years. They COULD have seen it coming and they could have provided a better outcome for their customers. How about this -- Give customers whose M9 cannot be repaired a voucher for  some set amount of money if they send it in to Leica, say $1500 or more depending on what the value of the parts are for Leica. Then let the customers spend those vouchers on any gear in any Leica dealer (new or used). The customer will know exactly what he's getting for his old camera and he'll have some options on what to spend the money on. 

You need to be profitable, and you need to make money, but this is the worst  design problem they've had with a camera and it might be worth working a little harder to see their customers have a softer landing.

And you've successfully had a ten year old Canon or Nikon sensor replaced? You are playing the digital game as a consumer, and demanding $1500 to keep you happy isn't a business model for any manufacturer, all they can hope for is their customer base is realistic and tuned-in to reality.

Edited August 19, 2020 by 250swb

[carbon_dragon]

First, I'm not demanding anything. Second, the M cameras are the most I've ever spent on any camera by a factor of 2-3 or more. Thus the M9 thing bothers me more than it would bother me if my Canon 5D mk 1 stopped working. Third, my M9 is fine so I'm not currently worried about the trade-in program, but I WAS saying that when I DID consider the trade-ins (and when I look at the Leica website now) I find the trade-in they ARE offering less than satisfying. For one thing, you're not offered ANYTHING FOR your camera -- that is, you pay them some amount of money AND your camera and get a new one (refurbished one? not sure) in return. You can't be sure what you actually got for your camera (very similar to new car shopping with a trade-in). I'm advocating that Leica could TELL you what your camera is worth to them as a separate transaction. However I'm not requiring them to GIVE the trader money. I am allowing them to offer essentially "credit" based on the value of your camera (with some minimum) TOWARD merchandise they ALREADY HAVE to sell. This seems pretty reasonable to me. And even though it wouldn't get your M9 repaired, it WOULD give the person with the M9 more reasonable options.

Now what is an unrepairable M9 worth? I admit I'm not sure, but the M9 is a special case and part of the voucher credit amount could be Leica making up for a design blunder of epic proportions. What does Leica get for doing this? Customer loyalty and goodwill. Their customers know they can trust Leica and will come back for another purchase.  Is it worth it to them? I'm guessing no.

That said, I thought the $1000 I paid to repair my M9 was fair and I got it back working and it looked great. I was not dissatisfied by my experience. I'd be OK with 10 years for my Canon 5D or my Sony Nex-7 or my Konica Minolta 5D or any other camera I've bought. It's just a fact of life. What is different is the cost of the Ms (for me). 

I'll note I'd also be pretty OK with a Q3 that an M mount as a successor to the M camera. The cost would be less, and it wouldn't really be a rangefinder. It would be well built but not to the level of the Ms. It would probably be something like $2.5K and I'd be pretty OK with a 10 year guarantee. The Leica Ms are a financial stretch for me, so I'm more sensitive to price than most of you probably are. 

[Lorenzoooo]

Grana padano dop bro

[Lorenzoooo]

Mmm sorry but we are actually talking about an m7 here...

[otto.f]

28 minutes ago, Lorenzoooo said:

Mmm sorry but we are actually talking about an m7 here...

So you didn’t decide yet after all these to the point responses? 😊😉

[Lorenzoooo]

Of course I did ahahaha

[otto.f]

And?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Massimike]

On 8/18/2020 at 9:11 PM, Peter_S said:

It`s not like you are buying a house or car here. Sure, 2600 (if that is an appropriate price is another matter) is a lot of money, but even if you use it for 10 years, and something brakes and no spare parts are available (which I doubt), you had 10 years of pleasure using a fine camera. And chances for that are so slim, I would spend my time worrying about something else. You want an M7, can afford an M7, get an M7. If it stretches your budget to the point that it would be a disaster, then, yes, maybe get something else.
I use a Contax T3, Contax T and a Bessa III, and the last thing I worry about are spare parts. I like them, use them, because they are what I need at the moment.


 

How’s the T3 I got a bargain for €1200 mint condition but I am scared I will regret of not buying like a M4-P plus a voigltander or a Zeiss lens for almost the same price, then I can buy other lenses later on. But I heard lot of nice things about the T3 😊.