M10-P or M10R

[ravinj]

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15 minutes ago, anickpick said:

I do go lower too sometimes. I did some boring test shots. The mentioned speeds ensure 9 to 10 sharp pictures out of 10. 

In my experience there is a slight difference. In order to get similar sharp results, 1/60 with a 50mm on the M10P requires approx. 1/90 on the M10R.

Good data point. 1/60 vs 1/90 is not material IMHO given the higher res, so I can live with that. 

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[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, anickpick said:

I do go lower too sometimes. I did some boring test shots. The mentioned speeds ensure 9 to 10 sharp pictures out of 10. 

In my experience there is a slight difference. In order to get similar sharp results, 1/60 with a 50mm on the M10P requires approx. 1/90 on the M10R.

I haven't done any testing per se. All I can report is that a quick and random scan of my library shows numerous examples of shutter speeds at half (or less) of focal length from 16 to 90mm, often at infinity, that are tack sharp. There are certainly some clunkers in there as well... in which case who is to blame?

Some may indeed see problems related to sample variation, no clue... but the optic, focus precision and technique are certainly in play here as well. Nothing new in that. One need only read Ming's half dozen year old love/hate articles on the Nikon D8x0s. With increased power comes increased responsibility.

1/60th 75mm Summilux 100% crop from raw infinity, no processing. 

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[edit] Adding the processed shot  for reference:

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Tailwagger

[convexferret]

1 hour ago, ravinj said:

Good data point. 1/60 vs 1/90 is not material IMHO given the higher res, so I can live with that. 

If you do the maths as to what difference in shutter speed would cover the difference in linear resolution it works out at about 1/3 stop, so the above sounds about right. 

[convexferret]

55 minutes ago, Steven said:

Probably. But photography (and I say that with no arrogance at all) is not a mathematical discipline ? 

It's obvious that for you it's a large part subjective, even when that clashes with the objective, each to their own.

[Guest]

I don’t have a problem with the M10r and low shutter speeds. I’m capable of in focus and sharp subjects at 1/30th with a 50mm Summicron. 
 

i believe a lot of it is your technique. Before coming to Leica, I used a GFX 50s, handheld and at those shutter speeds as well, and for the most part, also had very acceptable results. 

[Jeff S]

6 hours ago, Steven said:

You can discard the different shooting circumstances scenario. I assure you that the difference is too big to be just a confusion. In any case, curious to know how you're going to get on with the M10M. 

Cheers

Next time you’re at your local dealer, you might try testing another M10-R to determine if sample variation (or some other weird intervention) was at play.  Just curious given the extreme discrepancy.

Jeff

[Jeff S]

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48 minutes ago, Steven said:

Quick reminder for those catching the thread half way through: some users have compared the M10R and M10M and confirmed that the M10M gave sharper results at equivalent shutter speeds handheld. 

To be clear, the lack of Bayer Array not surprisingly yields higher effective resolution at all shutter speeds, but some users found low shutter speeds for the M10 Monochrom resulted in comparatively fewer blurry pics than with the M10-R.

Jeff

Edited March 17, 2021 by Jeff S

[dkmoore]

You both are exactly right. You can get sharp pictures with the M10R at slow shutter speeds but you have to pay much closer attention then any other M, at least that has been my experience with a lot of usage. 
 

It’s just something I never had to think about before and it does annoy me. But, I will stick it out with the M10R because I do think the files are nicer. 

[i-Leica]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Steven:

Quick reminder for those catching the thread half way through: some users have compared the M10R and M10M and confirmed that the M10M gave sharper results at equivalent shutter speeds handheld. 

why?????

[Jeff S]

6 minutes ago, i-Leica said:

why?????

No clear reason.  One would surmise different shooting conditions and/or greater viewing magnification (or user coffee intake), but three users have each refuted those explanations.  A mystery.
 

Jeff

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

Quick reminder for those catching the thread half way through: some users have compared the M10R and M10M and confirmed that the M10M gave sharper results at equivalent shutter speeds handheld. 

 

49 minutes ago, i-Leica said:

why?????

 

Unless you're using a nearly-flawless APO like a giant Zeiss Otus, different colors focus at slightly different depths, and any micro shake can throw one of them out of whack. The M10M is practically cheating by comparison. Even a near-miss by the M10M is going to look good next to the M10-R shot.

But the biggest deal here: Color sensors with a Bayer array have to demosiac the colors into what they should be at each pixel. With the color filter array removed, you have WYSIWYG at the pixel level – something like a 30% increase in acuity. That's a lot of breathing room for user error (shake).

Case in point, I can shoot my Q2M all day long at f/1.7, and even at far mid-distance it is incredibly sharp on the subject – it looks like a color camera stopped down to f/5.6. Of course the Q benefits from OIS.

Pretty sure this will continue to be an issue for M shooters >40mp until Leica gives us the option for EFCS and/or ES, plus IBIS.

[Edit to add:] It would be one thing of the M10-R had come out first followed by the M10M – then we might assume Leica had further dampened the shutter. But the reverse happened – M10M then M10-R, so we can't blame this on a hardware difference other than the removal of the color filter array.

Edited March 17, 2021 by hdmesa

[Khun Hans]

Having no problems shooting the M10-R at sometime 1/45, 1/60/1/90. 

It is a pity that this thread is dominated by one short time user of the M10-R suggesting practually  it a could be a flaw design because of his different experience.

[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

As far as I know, I am not the only person on this forum who reported the same issue. The M10R might fit some slow paced, or bright light shooting. 

Despite all the silicon, cameras, but especially the M, are pretty dumb. The M has zero idea what you're up to and certainly no knowledge of any of the events that led up to the moment when you decided to call upon it to do its thing. Fast pace, slow pace doesn't matter.  Your inputs, at the moment you initiate the shot, are what matters.  

It's analogous to the technique required for racing (really high performance driving for sticklers). To paraphrase Sir Stirling Moss, you must introduce the camera to the scene so that it knows what you are about to do and has a chance to settle and prepare itself to go do it.  If you have two cars, exactly the same... same body, same chassis, etc... save that one has more than double the HP and torque, in the lower power car you might be able to get away slamming  your right foot to the floor mid corner and most times not notice much of anything other than a slight wiggle, whereas in the latter the same behavior results in breaking traction entirely, going sideways and hitting a wall. Without electronic nannies (traction control... IBIS, OIS) to intervene on your behalf, if you want to go fast, the more power you have, the smoother you need to be when laying it the ground.

No different when using a camera.  What may pass as serviceable technique at 24Mpx, might not cut it at 41Mpx.  That could be the problem for some. In your case, given the M10M offers even higher acuity than the 10-R... aesthetics aside thats the whole F-ing point of the 10M given monochrome is a button press away in post with the 10R... if under similar circumstances you achieved good results with the 10-M, but not the 10-R then I'd suspect there was something amiss with your copy of the camera as with exception of the color filter array the two version are physically identical.

[Ktsa5239]

I got lured into getting the M10R because of the night shots Steven posted when he first got it. After about 4 months of use, I too find that I need to concentrate more to avoid blur at lower shutter speeds. I too can get down to 1/60 using my favourite APO50 lens relatively well but below that I start to get blurs at pixel level. However, it still looks ok without pixel peeping or printed to A4 sizes. While I do miss the smaller file size, I really like the new sensor. So I guess I'll just need to go slower and be more mindful when shooting 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Ktsa5239

[Ktsa5239]

30 minutes ago, Steven said:

Sorry, and THANK YOU. 

My wife said you are a bad influence because I’ve just put down a deposit for the APO35 after seeing your samples!

[Guest Nowhereman]

16 minutes ago, Steven said:

...Jean Marc...During a long conversation, he went on to say that anyone who is saying that there is no difference with motion blur between the P and the R lied to himself. He told me, again, with extreme confidence, that one MUST raise the shutter speed if one wants to use the R and get the same result as the P. As a matter of fact, he even said that he recommended to all his clients to NOT buy the R (and especially NOT upgrade to R) as he thought the P was a better camera for 2021...

4 minutes ago, Ktsa5239 said:

...So I guess I'll just need to go slower and be more mindful when shooting 

The physics of higher MP and higher density sensors is well known and it is not surprising that, while one could shoot 1/f with film, one needs 1/2f (and sometimes 1/3f) with 24 MP sensors like that of the M10, and 1/2f (or even 1/4f or a bit more) with 40 MP sensors that also have a higher pixel density. The machismo of "I can shoot 1/30 handheld with the M10-R" boggles the mind.

With the M10 and a 50 mm lens I've always tried to shoot at 1/90 or 1/125, when in a dynamic situation — and those are situations when it's not possible to "go slower and be more mindful when shooting". Keep in mind that The title of Cartier-Bresson's Decisive Moment in French is Images a la sauvette, which translates as Images on The Run. 

Not crazy about hearing that the M11 may have 40 MP or more, without IBIS. Incidentally, I love the IBIS in my Ricoh GR III, and wish that Leica would stick with 24 MP like they did with the SL2-S.

@Steven - Jean Marc has been a great help when I needed an M9 and then an M10, at the time these cameras came out  but was passing through Paris only for a couple weeks. You should stop by the nearby Polka Galerie at 12 rue Saint-Gilles next time you're at Leica Beaumarchais, since they sell my book and are doing a print sale from its images. You can speak with Bastien or Victor.
_______________________________________
Frog Leaping photobook and Instagram

[Tailwagger]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

Sounds to me like you haven't tried the A1 yet ! Sometimes it seems to know what's inside my brain ! 

Correct. Trying to make the most of what little gray matter I still possess. Saving the A1 or its progeny for my upcoming Alzheimer years.

[Tailwagger]

1 minute ago, Steven said:

You'll still have to remember to charge its batteries yourself... 

Thats why you hold your estate over your kid's head. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

@Jeff SJust stopped by the Leica store to try an M10R for two days. I spoke with Laurent and Jean Marc (everyoneI who's in Paris must know them, they are pillars of the Leica chain in france). I explained the different results with the M10M and M10R. 

He said it should not bother wasting time. He clearly and confidently affirmed " the M and the R are not the same camera". The lack of bayer and less processing demands of the M10M makes a world of difference. He says, for all the reasons we mentionned here already, that it's much easier to get sharp shots with the M than the R. 

During a long conversation, he went on to say that anyone who is saying that there is no difference with motion blur between the P and the R lied to himself. He told me, again, with extreme confidence, that one MUST raise the shutter speed if one wants to use the R and get the same result as the P. As a matter of fact, he even said that he recommended to all his clients to NOT buy the R (and especially NOT upgrade to R) as he thought the P was a better camera for 2021. 

We finished the conversation talking about the future M11. They believe that as always (since the M8) it will be announced at the end of the year for a 2022 release. After a small chat with the guys in Germany earlier this year, the believe there will be NO EVF, and NO IBIS in the camera, the technology to add such features without touching the size not being readily available. 

He added that he speculates the camera will have a minimum of 40MP (only one version, no lower res model) and that the upgrades will focus on faster processors (maybe he mentionned something about I5 to I7, or I misheard, not sure) and that the faster processors will yield to better results with higher MP sensors, as well as better low light performance. 

I forgot to ask him about the most important feature for me: a faster shutter speed than 1/4000th so I can stop using ND filters. 

To be continued...... 

So, let me get this straight: the M10-R needs a faster processor, but the M10 Monochrom (with the same sensor architecture and pixel density) does not because it lacks a color array. And therefore, although the user is doing everything the same, the slower processing is making the M10-R pics blurry?  And the M11 will solve this handholding issue with a faster processor?  Really?  News to me.

Are you still going to try a different M10-R?

Jeff

[tom0511]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Steven:

@Jeff SJust stopped by the Leica store to try an M10R for two days. I spoke with Laurent and Jean Marc (everyoneI who's in Paris must know them, they are pillars of the Leica chain in france). I explained the different results with the M10M and M10R. 

He said it should not bother wasting time. He clearly and confidently affirmed " the M and the R are not the same camera". The lack of bayer and less processing demands of the M10M makes a world of difference. He says, for all the reasons we mentionned here already, that it's much easier to get sharp shots with the M than the R. 

During a long conversation, he went on to say that anyone who is saying that there is no difference with motion blur between the P and the R lied to himself. He told me, again, with extreme confidence, that one MUST raise the shutter speed if one wants to use the R and get the same result as the P. As a matter of fact, he even said that he recommended to all his clients to NOT buy the R (and especially NOT upgrade to R) as he thought the P was a better camera for 2021. 

We finished the conversation talking about the future M11. They believe that as always (since the M8) it will be announced at the end of the year for a 2022 release. After a small chat with the guys in Germany earlier this year, the believe there will be NO EVF, and NO IBIS in the camera, the technology to add such features without touching the size not being readily available. 

He added that he speculates the camera will have a minimum of 40MP (only one version, no lower res model) and that the upgrades will focus on faster processors (maybe he mentionned something about I5 to I7, or I misheard, not sure) and that the faster processors will yield to better results with higher MP sensors, as well as better low light performance. 

I forgot to ask him about the most important feature for me: a faster shutter speed than 1/4000th so I can stop using ND filters. 

To be continued...... 

I am one who went from the M10 to the M10r, but dont have the M10 any more, so I can not do direct comparison any more.

In the time when I used both for some time side by side I did not run into blurr problems, but I also did not shoot at longer exp times, I usually try to stay at 1/125 and short with the M , 1/250 and shorter with the S, if possible.

Besides the question of blur at longer exp times, there are other things, like the highlight behaviour for example and resolutin of course. The color output is also a little different (not sure wich one I prefer) So saying overall the M10P is  the better camera over the M10r I would not agree (I do not  questione your experiences).