M10-P or M10R

[Jeff S]

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On 7/14/2021 at 10:21 PM, beewee said:

In many modern sensor designs, M10 and M10-R included, they take advantage of a dual-stage gain architecture.

M10R (and M10M and S3), not M10.

Jeff

[Wonzo]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Steven:

I don't mean to throw a bomb in here for no purpose, but after one year of using the M10R, I think that I am going to sell it and downgrade to the M10P again. As much as I want to love it, I can't. I feel like I'm having diner with a supermodel that has no conversation, and I miss my chubby girlfriend. 

After one year ?  Can you please give a more precise explenation of what the M10-P can do better than the M10-R ?  Didn`t you love especially the highlight recovery ability of the M10-R so much more in comarison with the M10-P ? What else don`t you like now ?

[junix]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

I don't mean to throw a bomb in here for no purpose, but after one year of using the M10R, I think that I am going to sell it and downgrade to the M10P again. As much as I want to love it, I can't. I feel like I'm having diner with a supermodel that has no conversation, and I miss my chubby girlfriend. 

Steven, I really like your consistency in changing your opinions.  

Jokes aside, I was thinking the same thing lately (apart from missing the chubby girlfriend..) to replace my M10-R with and M10-P, I just wouldn't call it downgrade.

[Jeff S]

Did you create a color profile for your M10R?

Jeff

 

[Jeff S]

5 minutes ago, Steven said:

what’s that ? 

Loads of discussions here, and tutorials online. Here’s one approach, which I use for all my cameras. 
 

 

Jeff

[elmars]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Steven:

The colors on the M10R are more muted, and more neutral. And it don’t like it. Especially the orange channel looks weird, and the biggest negative impact is on skin tones. They are sometimes a bit too pale, almost ghost like, and i can’t find a way to fix them in post.

I think this is a matter of taste. I like the color of the M10R very much, especially the skin tones. For the first time with Leica cameras they look right to me. Not so reddish like M9 and M240. The colors of the M10 are very good, but the M10R ist a bit better.

[otto.f]

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10 minutes ago, Steven said:

Of course it's a matter of taste. It's 100% a matter of taste! 

But do you really like the skin tones of the R? Don't you find them a little too pale ? the oranges are not very vibrant

I wonder what screen you have, or its color profile. I mean the computer screen where you analyze your images

Edited October 6, 2021 by otto.f

[LeicaR10]

Steven,  You are not alone.  I did exactly that with my M10-R went back to the M10-P.  The color palette is different that I did not like nor did wish to play the color management game and profiling.  It was a lot easier to simply go back to a M10-P that delivered what I needed.  Also, I did not need the extra MPs and found 24 MPs are more than sufficient.  This is what I also did with the SL2 and went to the SL2-S for less MPs and better in low light and more cinematic rendering.  r/ Mark

Edited October 6, 2021 by LeicaR10

[Tessar.]

55 minutes ago, Steven said:

Glad to hear. 
The only thing I would really miss is the ability to recover highlights so well. 

I'm so glad this conversation came up.  I'm moving up from an M240 soon and logic says to buy the M10R but I'm preferring the look of the M10/P pics in the image threads and on flickr.   I'd also have to upgrade my laptop to process the bigger files of the M10R, so I think I'll go with the M10P, which also gives much more choice and availability on the used market and a bit of money left over to put towards lenses.  

[WvE]

I wouldn't and have not bought the R in the first place, knowing that within 12 months or so the M11 would arrive. The R is an interim pope in my view. The M10-P is all I need.  

[elmars]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Steven:

But do you really like the skin tones of the R? Don't you find them a little too pale ? the oranges are not very vibrant

I know what You mean and I see the difference betwenn the two cameras. But I like the skin tones of the M10R more. 

[sarav]

2 hours ago, elmars said:

I think this is a matter of taste. I like the color of the M10R very much, especially the skin tones. For the first time with Leica cameras they look right to me. Not so reddish like M9 and M240. The colors of the M10 are very good, but the M10R ist a bit better.

I went from an M240 to M10R. This is what I think after less than a month:

Extra resolution: helps a lot with High Iso Noise. I normally print for publishing in size 32,6x48,6 and @12500-20000 ISO you can't see banding or disturbing noise. It's a giant leap from M240.
Extra resolution: you obtain a picture similar in pixel density to film scanned with Hasselblad/Imacon, rendition is clearly more analog-like.
Microblur: Sometimes with 90mm and 1/60th sec but nothing different from scanned films. To me is a non-existent problem. I normally take pictures @1/FocalLgt and shots with M10R are very sharp with recent lenses and sharp with old lenses.
Size: M10 Size is fantastic, I normally use Film-MP and M10/M10R size is little bigger but not as much because it's thin.
Colours: I judge rendition on a Eizo Colorgraphics and M10R files are more natural, truer, and more film-like; M240 files have more pop colours and clearly a digital-like look when you compare aside. This comes to tastes...I like street and documentary photography and I prefer a film look where colours are vibrant and full but toward reality as regards skin tones. M240 files are a bit more for advertising pictures, I have to tweak them more to calm down.
Batteries: I need 1,5 of them for a complete day (2 batteries)

I'm very happy with this camera actually.

[Guest Nowhereman]

9 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Did you create a color profile for your M10R?...

9 hours ago, Steven said:

what’s that ? 

@Steven - I've never wanted to get into making my own color profiles, but have found the Cobalt-Image camera profiles for Lightroom to be substantially better than the Adobe profiles, particularly in difficult light and with difficult color combinations. Indeed, Stuart Richardson found the Cobalt-Image profiles to be better than the custom profiles he made himself. See his post here and his subsequent post in the same thread. 

Before you get rid of the M10-R, you may want to try the Cobalt-Image profiles. Using these profiles, I've found that I was able to use color versions of some M10 images that previously I found acceptable only in B&W.  
_______________________________________
Frog Leaping photobook and Instagram

[Tessar.]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

Ok, thank you Mitch, I will look into it. 
But the point remains that the SOOC images of the P are nicer to my eyes than the R. 
Not getting rid of it yet anyway, since I have a D and an R. 
Im just so tempted to exchange my BP R for an ASC P. 

I'd love the ASC 100 body, but not the laquered brass lens.  It's really expensive and I don't need the directors viewfinder either.  I did see someone selling the body on its own on eBay a while back for £6K but didn't have the money at the time, otherwise I'd have bought it.

[LeicaR10]

Steven,  Although I went from M10-R back to the M10-P for my aforementioned reasons in my post #555...from what I learned recently from a source the next camera will benefit from a BSI type sensor like the SL2-S.  IMO, meaning the M11 could well have the look and feel like the SL2-S for low light rendering capability, color and hopefully a more cinematic look.  It might well have a solution for selective option for DNG output for different levels of DNG MPs...similar to the option in given with JPEGs.  This would be a great move for Leica with an excellent sensor and selectable MP for DNGs.  For those of us who do not need 40 MPs, we can perhaps select 24 MPs.  In my business, I can easily print 6 ft x 4 ft prints from a 24 MP sensor that renders the level of detail that at times can be more than amazing and my clients vote with their wallets.  It would be great to know a M11 delivers selective levels of MPs.  So we will just have to wait and see.  For me, 24 MPs is the sweet spot for creating photographs that ultimately meet my goal that causes the viewer to:  Stop, Look, Think and Feel something about that moment in time.  If I can create a photograph that accomplishes this goal...then I am more than pleased.  r/ Mark 

Edited October 6, 2021 by LeicaR10

[Wonzo]

In my eyes the colors of the M10-R are wonderful, even better than those of the M10-P, also concerning skin tones. The colors of the M240 in contrast gave me a hard time in post processing on almost every image. When the M10 came, I was more than happy to get rid of the M240.

What I don`t understand, is the discussion on any cinematic look of whatever digital sensor. Neither the M10-P nor the M10-R will satisfy in this regard. Here the choice of the lens is the most important question. An image shot wide open with an older lens can produce a cinematic look even on a digital sensor, but it`s not the digital camera itself, which achieves such results.

What also makes me wonder are comments, that 24 MP are more than sufficent, an M10-R is not necessary, while in other threads the same people are eagerly waiting for the M11. Will anyone really select 20 MP, if 40 or 60 MP will be possible?

@Steven The M10-P ASC is a nice supplement to your M10-R BP, the body is just beautiful - the most beautiful digital M body in my eyes 

[jplomley]

4 hours ago, sarav said:

I went from an M240 to M10R. This is what I think after less than a month:

Extra resolution: helps a lot with High Iso Noise. I normally print for publishing in size 32,6x48,6 and @12500-20000 ISO you can't see banding or disturbing noise. It's a giant leap from M240.
Extra resolution: you obtain a picture similar in pixel density to film scanned with Hasselblad/Imacon, rendition is clearly more analog-like.
Microblur: Sometimes with 90mm and 1/60th sec but nothing different from scanned films. To me is a non-existent problem. I normally take pictures @1/FocalLgt and shots with M10R are very sharp with recent lenses and sharp with old lenses.
Size: M10 Size is fantastic, I normally use Film-MP and M10/M10R size is little bigger but not as much because it's thin.
Colours: I judge rendition on a Eizo Colorgraphics and M10R files are more natural, truer, and more film-like; M240 files have more pop colours and clearly a digital-like look when you compare aside. This comes to tastes...I like street and documentary photography and I prefer a film look where colours are vibrant and full but toward reality as regards skin tones. M240 files are a bit more for advertising pictures, I have to tweak them more to calm down.
Batteries: I need 1,5 of them for a complete day (2 batteries)

I'm very happy with this camera actually.

Absolutely spot-on, and mirrors my findings as well. Going one step further, the added sensor resolution allows printing at the printers native resolution, resulting in images that are much more life-like. If I compare identical print sizes from my M10 at 240 ppi vs. the M10-R at 360 ppi on the Epson 3880 Pro on Exhibition Fibre, the M10-R prints most certainly look more realistic. Smoother tones with less artifacts upon close viewing. If your not making prints, I see no reason to purchase the M10-R. If you are, it is a game changer. 

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Steven said:

 
But the point remains that the SOOC images of the P are nicer to my eyes than the R. 
 

But they still have to go through conversion software on your computer.  It takes 10 minutes to create (or buy) a profile that, done once, can become your default import rendering. Far less time consuming than sandpapering your new camera….with real picture benefits. 

Jeff

[Jeff S]

19 minutes ago, Steven said:

Is there a profile that I can buy that will make my M10R files looks like my M10P files ? 

Buy a ColorChecker and profile both.

Jeff

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[otto.f]

6 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

@Steven - I've never wanted to get into making my own color profiles, but have found the Cobalt-Image camera profiles for Lightroom to be substantially better than the Adobe profiles, particularly in difficult light and with difficult color combinations. Indeed, Stuart Richardson found the Cobalt-Image profiles to be better than the custom profiles he made himself. See his post here and his subsequent post in the same thread. 

Before you get rid of the M10-R, you may want to try the Cobalt-Image profiles. Using these profiles, I've found that I was able to use color versions of some M10 images that previously I found acceptable only in B&W.  
_______________________________________
Frog Leaping photobook and Instagram

Except that Cobalt is even less warm and rather cold