M10-P or M10R

[Guest]

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8 hours ago, Steven said:

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Steven, you seem to have taken my posting too personally, it really wasn’t solely aimed at you, more at something that I find annoying so maybe it’s more my problem than it is yours and yes, perhaps I should not of posted such on an open forum. For that and for upsetting you I apologise. I just wish that the discussions that we all tumble into on these Forum pages could be more about exploring the end product and not the means of getting there, so yes perhaps it’s me who is in the wrong place, I don’t know. 

I do care much more about seeing images that delight, thrill or even disturb me, mostly I don’t give a toss about what they were shot on or how. Perhaps that’s where I differ from many who come to the forum which is, as you point out, a lot about the gear. Don’t throw the towel in on these pages because of what I said maybe touched a nerve, that would be daft.

 

Money money money, it’s not about that either. Sure all of us that partake of the Leica dance do have to be comfortable in spending what it takes to participate, I get that. It’s a price of admission, again I get that. I just wish it wasn’t made so blatantly obvious at times that there’s those for whom it’s more of a challenge than others……….But again that’s my problem, not yours.

 

So continue to post please and good luck with your quest to find a combination of Leica gear that better fulfills your needs.

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[jscottyk]

1 hour ago, jscottyk said:

For a variety of reasons, I went with a M10-P. 

I’ll try to get us back on track of the original post. At the end of the day, I was not ready to send the extra dollars for the extra pixels. I’ve got nothing against more pixels (or spending dollars for image making), and do agree when printing BIG nothing succeeds like the extra resolution. But, my largest prints these days are in the 17”x25”ish (A2ish) size. For that 24MP is more than enough. Would I like to future proof with more pixels? Of course, but not at the expense of pixel size/quality. A M10-P is 6.0 µm. A M10R is 4.59 µm. My much appreciated Monochrom, 6.89 µm.

I loved the Hasselblad X1Dii (5.3 µm, BTW), but felt like of camera of that size (and intention to be handheld) would benefit from IBIS. Fuji? I just don’t dig the experience of shooting that gear enough to outweigh its size compared to an M setup. Same, to a certain degree, with the SL2(s). 

I keep thinking, “If I’m going to lug around that much gear I want a BIG sensor (or negative) and I’ll take the 4x5 or RZ67.” So, it was back to where I have been since starting with my first Leica M4. Smallest package with the biggest bang for size optics; a Leica M system. And with that, I was not ready to send the extra dollars for the extra pixels. If the M11 has IBIS (which I understand is highly unlikely) I might go for +24MP.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, SoarFM said:

I know what you mean, but the difference between most lenses that are “a stop slower” than a similar focal length lens has almost nothing to do with the light gathering capabilities of the lens. Is a 50mm Summilux just a stop slower than a 50mm Noctilux? Well, it is, but that fails to describe a most important difference, what some would call the defining characteristics.. Similarly, I would no sooner describe the differences between my 28mm Summaron and my 28mm Summicron as one lens being “noisier” or “grainier” than the other although if both are shot wide open that will be a charcteristic of the resulting file or negative over the other.

I like faster lenses because they allow me to shoot in lower light at lower iso.

Thats the important difference for me.

[Erato]

FYR.

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[Matlock]

54 minutes ago, petermullett said:

I do care much more about seeing images that delight, thrill or even disturb me, mostly I don’t give a toss about what they were shot on or how. Perhaps that’s where I differ from many who come to the forum which is, as you point out, a lot about the gear.

My most published picture was taken on my father's Voigtlander Brilliant (the very basic model). I have a M10-R and a M10-D which I prefer but not because of the quality of images that it produces, but nothing that they have produced so far comes close to that Ektachrome taken with Dad's camera. It was taken 60 years ago but I still have the transparency and can reproduce it any time, either digitally or as a print (if I had a 6 x 6 projector I could use that).

[jscottyk]

19 minutes ago, Erato said:

FYR.

The Seven Levels of Photographers

Also summarized into 2 levels

Also in     French   Italian   German   Spanish
Dutch   Portuguese   Czech   Polish   Russian
Hungarian   Ukrainian   Turkish   Thai   Chinese

read the seven levels of artists here and the seven levels of surfers here.

https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/7.htm

Also this. 😅

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[tom0511]

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Steven:

Highly subjective, and also very incoherent with things you've said in the past. 

Since a couple days, some people have been bashing me here because I chose to spend 40K in lenses of the same focal length in March, and apparently money is a dirty thing now and I should hide it or be embarrassed of it (not what I expected from Leica users, but very French of you guys).

All this time, while trying to share my impressions on the lenses, I am told that lenses won't make me a better photographer and that gear doesn't matter (as if my reason for buying those lenses was for taking better picture 🙄🤔), to end up being finally told that the lenses I chose have no soul and my pictures won't ever be meaningful because of the gear, from someone who always discards gear as having an impact on a good image! This is ABSURD 😅

Anyway. Yes, the lenses I bought are expensive, but no they are not unreasonable decision.  I shared it here because I thought we all had the same passion and some people could benefit from the other's experiences. It's a pity that so many of you have reacted with so much anger, jealousy, and hate towards me these past 48 hours in every thread I try to participate. 

I really loved this place, but I guess it's time to take a step back from here... 

🥱

Just ignore dumb internet bashing  And to make it clear: an optical and mechanicel excellent lens doesnt make one a worse photographer

Looking forward to pick up my 28 Summilux tomorrow.

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by tom0511

[dkmoore]

5 hours ago, petermullett said:

Steven, you seem to have taken my posting too personally, it really wasn’t solely aimed at you, more at something that I find annoying so maybe it’s more my problem than it is yours and yes, perhaps I should not of posted such on an open forum. For that and for upsetting you I apologise. I just wish that the discussions that we all tumble into on these Forum pages could be more about exploring the end product and not the means of getting there, so yes perhaps it’s me who is in the wrong place, I don’t know. 

I do care much more about seeing images that delight, thrill or even disturb me, mostly I don’t give a toss about what they were shot on or how. Perhaps that’s where I differ from many who come to the forum which is, as you point out, a lot about the gear. Don’t throw the towel in on these pages because of what I said maybe touched a nerve, that would be daft.

 

Money money money, it’s not about that either. Sure all of us that partake of the Leica dance do have to be comfortable in spending what it takes to participate, I get that. It’s a price of admission, again I get that. I just wish it wasn’t made so blatantly obvious at times that there’s those for whom it’s more of a challenge than others……….But again that’s my problem, not yours.

 

So continue to post please and good luck with your quest to find a combination of Leica gear that better fulfills your  

Edited March 20, 2021 by dkmoore

[Guest Nowhereman]

7 hours ago, Steven said:

...Since a couple days, some people have been bashing me here because I chose to spend 40K in lenses of the same focal length in March, and apparently money is a dirty thing now and I should hide it or be embarrassed of it (not what I expected from Leica users, but very French of you guys)...I really loved this place, but I guess it's time to take a step back from here... 

Yes, and now you're being told that you shouldn't take personal attacks personally! There was another money-jealous post a few days ago — don't recall whether it's in this thread or another one — that was equally offensive, to which I almost reacted but then decided not to because it left such a bad taste. In fact, there are various sorts of jealousy on LUF. More, generally, there is an excessive tendency to question people's motives that is often annoying. When I see such posts I often think of stopping to post here but then think of a Polish saying, "The hunchback doesn't see his own hump". BTW, I smiled when I saw you wrote, "very French of you guys" because I had the same thought and know where you're coming from.
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[otto.f]

13 hours ago, Steven said:

Highly subjective, and also very incoherent with things you've said in the past. 

Since a couple days, some people have been bashing me here because I chose to spend 40K in lenses of the same focal length in March, and apparently money is a dirty thing now and I should hide it or be embarrassed of it (not what I expected from Leica users, but very French of you guys).

All this time, while trying to share my impressions on the lenses, I am told that lenses won't make me a better photographer and that gear doesn't matter (as if my reason for buying those lenses was for taking better picture 🙄🤔), to end up being finally told that the lenses I chose have no soul and my pictures won't ever be meaningful because of the gear, from someone who always discards gear as having an impact on a good image! This is ABSURD 😅

Anyway. Yes, the lenses I bought are expensive, but no they are not unreasonable decision.  I shared it here because I thought we all had the same passion and some people could benefit from the other's experiences. It's a pity that so many of you have reacted with so much anger, jealousy, and hate towards me these past 48 hours in every thread I try to participate. 

I really loved this place, but I guess it's time to take a step back from here... 

🥱

Hello Steven, I appreciated your first examples of the 35APO and I agree absolutely upon the belief that gear does matter as a means to an end. Indeed it would be strange if people participate in LUF when they have a problem with spending much money on camera’s. I just found that you were repeating yourself too much and too often too defensive. So I will enjoy a bit more calmness on LUF, but I would appreciate it if you stay. 

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Steven said:

To get back on track with the topic of the thread, and answering a little late to @Jeff S

France just got shut down again this morning. The Leica Stores being closed will give me in fact the opportunity to take out a demo M10R again for another round of testing. I will tell you if I have a different experience this time. Should have it in my hands sometimes next week. 

Cheers

I was only thinking about some quick snaps in the store or nearby at slow shutter speeds.  No need on my part for any extensive testing, unless you’re personally motivated and inclined to do so.  I’m happy with my M10. (I picked up my M10M rental yesterday, but the frame line mechanism was not working properly, so it’s going back.  Hope to get another sample sometime today.  No new lockdown here.)

Jeff

[Jeff S]

Understood.  If I’m really trying to judge gear, I need some time to use it as I normally would. For the M10M rental, I’ll do some A/B comparisons with my M9M and various lenses/shooting conditions, but then just take it out to enjoy. In this case, though, I already know how an M10 feels and handles, so more emphasis will be on the resultant files (and prints).  

Jeff

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

I’m inclined to do. I’m pretty sure that with a few snaps outside the store, my focus technique would be good enough to get everything sharp. 
What I want to try again is to go out in the real world: not the moment when i hold the camera with full concentration to take a stable shot while I hold my breath, but rather the moment when the camera becomes an invisible extension of my hand (or my eye) and I forget to be careful.

I want to see if my first M10R was défectuos or if it’s just not for me. 

You may prefer to first test it with the same settings/way of shooting as your M10, but I highly recommend at some point you try changing the default Auto ISO Maximum Exposure Time to 1/[4f]. Even if you're a full-manual shooter, try switching to Auto ISO with this setting as a guide for the minimum shutter speed required to get the results your'e after. Then if that works, you can decide if the higher shutter speed/ISO is worth the increase in resolution.

As for shooting technique, the described flat-finger with the shutter button under the joint + squeeze will mean much, much more to getting a steady shot than holding your breath. You're not trying to qualify for long distance rifle marksmanship, you just want to be able to take photos and enjoy yourself.

[hdmesa]

Link to shutter technique: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/316034-soft-shutter-release-for-leica-m/?do=findComment&comment=4097580

 

[tom0511]

and keep in mind exposure with m10r is usually a little "darker" than M10. So m10r is first M where I dial in +0,3 quite often.

[tom0511]

it is indeed a bit different. It exposes often a little lower, color is a little different and highlight rolloff as well.

IN regards of color I am comparing lr and c1 right now. 

looking forward to your experience and opnion.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by tom0511

[jscottyk]

On 3/20/2021 at 9:36 AM, Steven said:

...I want to see if my first M10R was défectuos or if it’s just not for me. 

@Steven how did the test go?

[dkmoore]

On 3/20/2021 at 4:59 PM, tom0511 said:

it is indeed a bit different. It exposes often a little lower, color is a little different and highlight rolloff as well.

IN regards of color I am comparing lr and c1 right now. 

looking forward to your experience and opnion.

 

 

I keep it at -3 at all times during the day and 0 at night or indoors. I’m surprised you keep it at +3 regardless of time of day because of the highlight sensitivity. 
 

Got to Protect the highlights. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by dkmoore

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[tom0511]

I left it on -1/3 with other  digital M cameras, but the M10r seems to expose lower. So I can often dial in +1/3 and still can keep the highlights. Are you (dkmoore) alkting about the M10r?

By the way - I also found out recently , that different lenses can lead to different exposure. For example with my new 28 Summilux the center of image will come out a little brighter than my older 28/2.0asph does. For whatever reason.(Maybe more contrasty lens)

[hdmesa]

6 hours ago, tom0511 said:

I left it on -1/3 with other  digital M cameras, but the M10r seems to expose lower. So I can often dial in +1/3 and still can keep the highlights. Are you (dkmoore) alkting about the M10r?

By the way - I also found out recently , that different lenses can lead to different exposure. For example with my new 28 Summilux the center of image will come out a little brighter than my older 28/2.0asph does. For whatever reason.(Maybe more contrasty lens)

Assuming you're talking about shooting at wider apertures, the Summilux has more vignetting, which can lead to higher exposure in the center.